Lozach vs. Newman Tuning Charts

Bob Snelgrove · From: san jose, ca

I've noticed that the Loach (http://www.lozach.com/tuning.php) tuning method has some notes way off from Jeffs 442.5 charts. I'm assuming Jeffs' chart is based on 10 cents cab drop.

A note: Jeff, +4, Lozach,0. F note, -18 vs -29, etc.

C# note, -6 vs -14.9, etc

Anyone compared the 2?

thx

bob
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CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

the diff between the two is
the Lozach method takes in consideration the cabinet drop of each steel thus giving a specific tuning chart to that steel
whereas the Newman chart is a fixed chart & one tunes by it

i adopted the Lozach method & am quite happy w: it's result
in my case slight compromising was necessary :
the F# on pedal C string 4 & Eb on string 2

Bob Snelgrove · From: san jose, ca

There appears to be a flaw in the Lozach interactive chart. Some notes never change no matter what cents offset you enter!

E-F -29.8 whether it's 0 or 20 cents offset! C pedals no change, etc. Glad I caught that!

bob
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1986 Franklin D-10

Billy McCombs · From: Bakersfield California, USA

I have tried them all and went back to the Emmons chart. Its at buddyemmons.com. of course I do play a Emmons L II.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

How do they compare with actual just intonation numbers? Check the figures against the cents offsets on my JI page:

http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/just_e9.html
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Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

There's a simple answer here. One is not right and the other wrong. The numbers don't really matter much. What matters is that the player have a system of tuning -- whether it be with a tuning fork or $200 tuner -- that works to find the combination that makes him/her happy. Once the bar hits the strings most of that is inconsequential.

There is (truly) an INFINITE number of ways to tune the open strings and pulls on a pedal steel guitar. I find it best to figure out what works for me and to learn to tune to that standard quickly on stage. It's an adjustment made to a tool used to do work -- just like a scientist would calibrate a scientific instrument before beginning an experiment or a race team will tweak the mixture for a race car. All the analysis in the world won't improve on your own ears.
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Bob Snelgrove · From: san jose, ca

Bob Snelgrove · From: san jose, ca

Jeff Garden · From: Center Sandwich, New Hampshire, USA

here's buddy's chart from the website

http://www.buddyemmons.com/TTChart.htm

Bob Snelgrove · From: san jose, ca

Bill Mayville · From: Las Vegas Nevada * R.I.P.

larry
I can hardly believe you said to tune it, to make you happy.What a crock.
The different tuning charts available, will make some pretty happy.
With metal stops, tuning is incrediabley sensitive.
I loved Jeff,But his tuning always gave me a stomach ach.I happen to use the Emmons tuning.Always have.Doesn't mean it is the best,But I have NEVER --been out of tune.Even playing with a Bigger band, than usual.It is nice to play In the Key of C,and when F is played, it is still comes to 440.There is a reason why Buddy uses that tuning.
It works..._______Bill
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Bob Snelgrove · From: san jose, ca

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I think that's the Emmons Guitar Company chart, not Buddy's. I understand that Buddy tunes straight up except for flatting his thirds a little bit.
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Bob Snelgrove · From: san jose, ca

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

When you see small plus and minus numbers, they are cents offsets from ET.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Back to the old who's chart or method is better. Rolling Eyes

As Larry pointed out, you have to make yourself happy. I used to always tune everything at "0" when I first got a tuner. People kept telling me I ws out of tune. I found the (original) Newman tuning chrt and started using it on my 71 PP Emmons and no one ever told me I was out of tune.

I have developed my own tuning "chart" for my D-10 Franklin which is a modification of the Newman chart, referened to the original Newman chart which tuned the E's to "0", not the later chart. This also goes along with Larry's points.

There is no one "universal" tuning chart or method. What works for one may not work for another.
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Brendan Mitchell · From: Melbourne Australia

I have NEVER --been out of tune !!!?!

Jeez I'm rarely IN tune .

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I used to tune my Es pedals down to my Peterson set to OE9.
That's E at 440 or zero making my Es a little sharp then chime the Bs to the Es.
But lately I have been tuning my Es and Bs to 440 with pedals up as they are root notes for playing in E9th and B6th / Universal and I seem to be happier with that.
Some notes must be adjusted to taste in my opinion F#s, C pedal Plus a few more.
If you can record your self live and are okay with it you are in the ball park.
Obviously it is personal and must be sorted out in the learning curve.
Our ears change and become accustomed to different tunings, different bands require different techniques as in Fiddle Vs Piano bands.
With vocal harmonies no one argues for Sharp 3rds or flat 5ths.
That is what sounds most musical to me... Strong vocal harmonies.
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Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Stupid computers.. out of tune Very Happy

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CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

by Tom Bradshaw & Jeff Newman :

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=197268

" Would you know the evolution of Newman’s tempered tuning, when he first tuned the E’s to 440, then later revised his chart to tune the E’s to 442?”
It just so happened that I did know some of that history, but wouldn’t want anyone to think I knew everything about it.
With a much larger audience on the Forum, I decided to elaborate on the subject, getting more into the Equal Temperament vs. Just Tuning aspects as it related to Jeff’s and my activities of many years ago.

Background:
The Korg WT-10A Tuner:
Away back in the ‘70s or early ‘80s I began stocking and selling Korg’s earliest chromatic tuner, the WT-10A.
Someone turned me on to it and said it was a Godsend to steelers who had to tune so many strings, then tune the pitches needed for employing pedals and knee levers.
The Korg tuner was supposed to make it a fast work.

So when I got that tuner in my hands, I knew I had to learn how to use it.
I spent a lot of time playing with it. I did what I suspect everyone did when they got theirs.
I tuned every open string on my guitar to its assigned pitch, then each pitch for every pedal/knee lever change.
All were tuned to the zero mark (440), using the VU meter.
Wow, what a disaster. The guitar sounded awful.
At first I thought the tuner was defective. I put it aside, then re-tuned my steel in the traditional manner: by ear.

Once the steel was back in tune and I was happy with it, I wondered just how “defective” the tuner really was. I compared the readings of my now in-tune strings with what the tuner revealed them to be, and was amazed at how far the needle on the VU meter deviated from the 440 for most every pitch I needed to tune to.
I set the tuner aside and took the attitude, “To hell with that thing.”

Fortunately, I thought about the tuner a bit more. I concluded that the tuner didn’t have to be a total loss
if I could achieve a good in-tune sound by simply writing down how much the VU needle deviated from the 440 mark for each of those pitch-settings I’d established for my “good” sound.
I did that and made a chart. Also somewhere in the mix of it all, I began researching the “Just” tuning (also called Just Intonation).
I was a “red-hot” back in those days and now remember that I even went to the library (the Internet wasn’t even a word then) and found information about the Just Intonation scale.
I began to understand that I was tuning my steel to the Just Intonation scale.
I learned that even Bach had published something about it
That was when I changed my mind about the tuner’s value.
The result was my authoring of a steel player’s “Owner’s Manual” for that tuner.
Once written and printed, I supplied one with every Korg tuner I sold. I explained how users of the tuner should make up a tuning chart for their steels.
I even provided one as a guide to show how the tuning chart should look and be used.
I quickly became the biggest single seller of Korg tuners in the world. Korg told me that when one of their salesmen came to my house to learn why I was ordering so many of them!
Boy, did that inflate my ego.

Now, To Jeff and His Charts. Jeff and I were the best of friends and talked by phone often. As many know, I hosted a number of his seminars. Jeff’s wife, Fran, and my wife just loved one another, but loved going shopping even more.
They got rid of us by doing so, permitting Jeff and me to talk steel continuously,
When Jeff began publishing his “Pedal Rod” Newsletter, he also printed his recommended tuning chart.
As time passed he changed his original recommended string-pitch settings, doing so several times. Eventually he even explained why he chose to recommend tuning his E-strings to 442 Hertz.
Jeff did provide an explanation of his 442-Hertz change, but I can’t recall when he did so.

Challenging Jeff:
I began to ponder why Jeff kept changing his tuning chart recommendations.
I finally figured it out. Jeff was frequently given (or was loaned) a new pedal steel from a manufacturer.
I suspected that he would use his original chart to tune each new guitar, only to discover that his established numbers didn’t work for it.
When that thought hit me, I viewed myself as a brilliant tactician (yes I suffer from ideas of grandeur). I immediately called him and explained my theory that a different guitar required a different chart in order to sound in tune.
He paused for a moment then told me he believed I was right, and that he had thought his hearing was changing because of the aging process (I knew he was kidding, but who wouldn’t blame it on something?). I explained that every guitar was different and that players should make up their own chart for each and every brand of steel they owned.
Jeff said he would tell his students that. I don’t know if he ever did.
But let’s end that discussion and get back to the 440 vs. 442 matter:

Even though Jeff didn’t tell me this, here is what I believe (because it worked for me!). Even if Jeff got his guitar in tune, he would discover that it still wasn’t quite right when playing with a band. His guitar was still flat of their basic pitch. I believe Jeff went to a 442 Hertz level as the base point for his E strings because of the “problem” of detuning, i.e. cabinet drop. Nearly every pedal steel made at that time (and even many to this day) has cabinet drop and/or de-tunes in their individual ways. Notice that I put the word, ‘problem’, in quotes. Not all de-tuning, or cabinet drop, is a problem. But that is a subject for another time!

As I said, I felt that Jeff wasn’t in tune with the band because his guitar was still "flat" of the band’s overall pitch. I suspect that Jeff calculated the average amount of detuning (caused by cabinet drop) for his pedal steel and settled on it being 2 Hertz (8 cents). Why do I suspect this? Because I did some experimenting back then with a number of guitars myself. I came up with the 2-Hertz average detuning myself. So, I felt Jeff had discovered the same thing I did. My procedure was simple: I depressed the A & B pedals (on an E9th tuning), and watched the needle on the tuner’s VU meter move below the 440 mark. It seemed to most often settle at 438. If I re-tuned the E strings back to 440 while holding those pedals down, when I let off the pedals, the typical rise in the VU meter’s needle would bring it back to 442. I then suspected that Jeff would tune the rest of the strings (while still holding those two pedals down) to be in tune with the 442 pitch. I know I should have phoned him, but I didn’t think it was worth a call at that time. Stupid me! But to continue:

I felt Jeff compensated for an in-tune sound by tuning all the other strings and knee levers changes to be as close to “the good sound” (the Just scale) as possible, when not employing the pedals. For him, it depended on how those knee levers were used in the context of the band’s overall pitch. His compensation, regarding the knee levers, could be referred to as “tempering” those changes, while the rest of his tuning process would be in line with his wanting a “Just” tuning. Once Jeff was done, he would note the variations he got from the 440 mark on his tuner and then would prepare his chart. He shared his chart(s) with his students either at his seminars or via his Pedal Rod newsletter. I suspect that he never published the procedure by which he arrived at those numbers, but I could be wrong. I also believe that if every steel player in the world had learned his procedure away back then, they would now be tuning up quickly

Tuning Made Simple: Take the time to tune your own guitar by “ear” to be as close as you can to getting an “in tune” sound for your ears. When satisfied, make a chart of your findings and use it to quickly tune your steel. Thereafter, you should be happy by re-tuning it to your chart, even being able to do so without hearing any sounds from your guitar. And also, because most tuners have a lighted VU meter, you can do it in the dark.

If you have to tune to a band or another instrument (and those players don’t want to re-tune to your guitar), determine what their pitch level is and, using your tuner’s meter adjustment, re-tune your guitar by still using your chart. You’re then ready to rock.

A Reality: It is very important for you to “believe” that you’re playing in tune.
Let’s face it, once any steel player begins playing, he can only be happy playing if HE believes his sound is an in-tune sound.
And, we all compensate for the nuances of our great instrument by moving the bar above or below the fret lines to achieve what we hear as an in-tune sound. Whether we are playing in tune is the opinion of those who listen to us, particularly our band mates. But who gives a rats about them. We are who counts, right?

Be aware however, that if another steel player sits behind and plays your steel, or you play theirs, you both will believe that the others’ guitar is out of tune and will proceed to tweak the tuning.
I’ve seen this happen time and time again. It proves that everyone hears differently.

Jeff and My Comeuppance’s:
Once on a visit, Jeff admonished me about something I had written that he disagreed with. As I recall, he was right, so I agreed to cease printing such nonsense or agreed to publish a retraction; I can’t remember now.
However, I took that unrelated opportunity to then admonish him for telling everyone to “temper-tune” their guitars
(which implied that they were to tune to the Equal Temperament tuning).
I explained to him that steel players want the so-called “good” sound, and do so by trying to tune their guitars to a “Just” tuning scale, not an Equal Temperament scale
And incidentally, I define the Just Tuning scale as the one with all the notes and chords blending nicely, and all of those annoying “beats” between harmonizing notes are eliminated.
After arguing for a time, I finally convinced Jeff that he, and nearly all other steel players, was actually trying to tune their guitars to a JUST intonation tuning, but didn’t realize what they were doing.
[Note: If you think you can live with your guitar being tuned to an Equal Temperament scale, tune each note on it to a piano and see how happy you are with the sound. I predict that you will quickly decide that you can’t live with it sounding that far out of tune!]
I later felt good when I heard Jeff tell his students at a seminar, “The Just Tuning method is how most players tune their steels.” However, I don’t know if he ever wrote about it in any publication.

Some Concluding Thoughts and A Summation:
I suspect that when we use the word “temper” with “tuning”, we are using it in accordance with a few of its dictionary definitions.
Such definitions imply that we are “adjusting” or “altering” a tone pitch to be more in line with what sounds good to our idea of beautiful harmony. Unfortunately, that conflicts with the more prevalent assumption that we are employing the Equal Temperament tuning procedure.
What we are actually doing is trying to get our guitar to sound its best.
That sound is the Just-Tuned sound, getting as many strings tuned to the Just Intonation and blending beautifully.

When you say you “Temper Tune”; you are likely tuning every string on your guitar to 440 Hertz with a tuner.
With a few exceptions, a piano is "temper tuned", meaning that all its strings are tuned to align themselves to the “440” position on a tuner’s VU meter, a scale with the Hertz levels evenly divided within an octave.
For your guitar, the instant that you decide to tune a string flat or sharp of a tuner’s 440 reading, you are moving toward tuning it to a Just Scale and you are “Just Tuning”.

I might add that there are some electronic instruments that I've heard of that have the Just Tuning built into it, like some electric pianos. But I know of no fix-tuned instruments that are able to fully accomplish it. That is another reason that the pedal steel is unique in the tuning world.

Other Sources: There are many Internet sites that describe the Tempered and Just Tuning methods. Here’s a couple:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
As related, my investigation of the Just Tuning led me to learn about Johan Sebastian Bach’s work and compositions called “The Well Tempered Clavier”. Some of that history can now be accessed at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Well-Tempered_Clavier#Intended_tuning

There is a YouTube video of Jeff demonstrating his Just Tuning approach on a Korg AT-12 tuner :

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4956963763809301054#

Lastly, there are many other Internet sites that claim to explain the process of Tempered Tuning of instruments. But while they say they are “tempering” a chord or tuning, what they are really trying to do is achieve the “Just Tuning” sound from their instruments, the sound that is most pleasant to our ears.

If anything I’ve supplied here is not clear or you take exception to what I’ve said regarding the history of Jeff’s tuning charts, please feel free to disagree and scream bloody murder. Then, present your own opinion or knowledge on the subject. And while you’re at it, have a “cool” one on Jeff and me, out of any glass that’s handy. …Tom

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

i might as well add " tuning by harmonics " since that's really the only & real way to tune
is'nt that how steelers did before tuners ?

the E9 tuning has 2 chords E & B
when you tune, you'll have refer to both
(as well as A w: pedals A & B engaged)
& eventually F# minor chord

lever E lowers Es a half
lever F raises Es a half
lever G raises F#s a whole
lever D lowers Eb a half
lever V lowers Bs a half

you will be using frets 5 - 7 - 12 - & 4 !
you can get a harmonic on the 4th fret - certainly not as easy as on frets 5,7 & 12
look for it, it's there

here we go :

Open/no pedals for starters - pedals & levers will follow
using harmonics on each :
on left reference tone / on right string to tune

E : string 8 fret 5 / string 4 fret 12

B : string 10 fret 5 / string 5 fret 12

F# : string 5 fret 7 / String 1 fret 12 - string
F# : string 1 fret 12 / string 7 fret 5

G# : string 8 fret 4 ( yep 4) / string 6 fret 5
G# : string 4 ( yep 4 ) / string 3 fret 5

Eb : string 5 fret 4 / string 2 fret 5

E : string 8 w: A&B fret 5 / string 6 w: A&B fret 7

A : string 6 w: A&B fret 5 / string 3 w: A&B fret 12
A : string 6 w: A&B fret 12 / string 9 fret 7

C# : string 5 w: A&B fret 12 / string 10 w: A&B fret 5
C# : string 6 w: B&C fret 4 / string 4 w: B&C fret 7
C# : string 6 w: B&C fret 4 / string 5 w: B&C fret 5

Eb : string 2 fret 12 / string 4 w lever E fret 12
Eb : string 2 fret 12 / string 8 w: lever E fret 5

B(G# lever): string 5 fret 5 / string 7 w: lever G fret 4
G# : string 3 fret 12 / string 1 w: lever G fret 12

F : string 5 w: A&B fret 4 / string 4 w: lever F fret 5
F : string 4 w: lever F fret 12 / string 8 w: lever F fret 5

Bb : string 7 fret 4 / string 5 w: lever V fret 5
Bb : string 5 w: lever V fret 12 / string 10 w: lever V fret 5

D : string 9 fret 5 / string 2 w: lever D fret 12

---------------------------------------------------

when tuning strings 1(F#) - 2(Eb)- 7(F#) note that the root/reference is B ......NOT... E
F# being the fifth & Eb being the third of B :
the fifth of B gets the same treatment/value as the fifth of E
the third of B gets the same treatment/value as the third of E
last but not least (the plot sickens lol)
when tuning F# on string 4 w: pedal C : F# is the root tone since the ref is an F# minor chord
here again it will get it's own treatment/value

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

As one, on a continuous search for something/anything, after seeing this thread, I copied off the Emmons tuning chart above and programmed it into my Strobo. Of course, being careful not to disturb the tuning I've been using for months, a Lozach/harmonic/tempered hybrid with the "Es" at 440. Which works mostly pretty well!

I tuned my mess up (E9th), using the "Emmons" settings. I was pleasantly surprised, it worked well against anything I pulled up on Youtube. It also gave me a hint of growl I didn't have with the other tuning. All triads worked and I noticed no detuning as a result of cabinet drop. The chart doesn't cover all of the changes I have, so I'm not done with "tweeking", but it is good enough that I am going to run with it this weekend to see how it pans out. I think it will work just fine, cause it is pleasing to my ear.

This chart as with many, brings out the need for a fix to tuners that will allow several setting for the same note. And yes, I know, they can be programmed in several different positions/locations, ie. T1,2,3,4. Still, something that IMO, that has room for improvement.

Just my take, yours might be very different.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Crowbear, in his comments, has confirmed what I've been saying "there is no one tuning for all guitars". Each one has to be tuned so "it" is in tune with itself.

Bruce Bouton, on his instruction video, comments about tuning and getting it in tune open but then checking it up the neck such as the 8th and 13th frets and doing further fine tuning so it's in tune up the neck. He also makes a comment about the "AF" combination never being in perfect tune.
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Bill Mayville · From: Las Vegas Nevada * R.I.P.

When Jeff Came out with a LITTLE different tuning,than before,I always tried it for about a week.
At the end of the week I would make up my mind,how good it was.I did notice his tuning's over the years,seemed to edge toward the Emmons tuning.
But they were always Jeff;s.
When ordering my new Jackson,David said,you are using
Buddys old Tuning.
One of Jeff's remarks has stuck in my mind ,all this time.If you have a guitar that breaks the third.
Switch to a Ten,and that will help.It always has worked for me,and the sound never changed enough to worry about it.
Bill
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Bob Snelgrove · From: san jose, ca

Good stuff, guys.

I still need someone to check the Lozach interactive chart to see if it's flawed like it is on my system.

thx

bob
_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRwye98siA4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZlAdlrRYj0

http://www.reverbnation.com/bobsnelgrove

1978 Crawford Emmons P/P
1976 Tommy White P/P
1986 Franklin D-10

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