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Author Topic:  Ralph Mooney approach
Keith Hilton


From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
Post Posted 21 Apr 2010 10:12 am     Reply with quote

I am still learning new things with the two new Ralph Mooney pedals I added to my E9th. Granted you can get a lot of the Ralph Mooney stuff with the standard E9th Nashville set-up, but it is played in different places with different pedals. It just does not sound the same. Ralph loves to use a 5-minor against the band's one chord. In other words a G minor if the band is playing a C chord. I am still discovering inversion of that with the two new pedals. What other chords have you discovered that Ralph likes to use against a band playing a major cord, or a 7th chord? Some of the nasty stuff may not be for everyone, but I love it, as it will turn heads. For example using a 7th chord with the 7th note of the chord on top. That twang is taking me some getting use to-- seeing as how the 7th note is the 3rd string on my E9th neck. It is a high pitched nasty 7th.
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Lee Baucum


From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
Post Posted 21 Apr 2010 11:00 am     Reply with quote

Hey, Keith! I've never thought of that as a "5-minor" chord that Moon likes to use. I think of it as a form of a I ninth chord. Instead of being a Gm over a C chord, I look at it as a C9.

Lee
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Stuart Legg


Post Posted 21 Apr 2010 12:02 pm     Reply with quote

Mooney is Jazz on E9 and sub' a mi' built on the 5th of a dom' chord is pretty standard.
I think in this case a Gm7 is used so as to give the impression of a C11 chord. I also hear occasionally a maj7 built on the 4th of the dom' chord which in this case would be a Bbmaj7 arpeggio played over the C9 or C11.
But then again I'm no Mooney and I'm sure he never gave it that much thought.
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Keith Hilton


From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
Post Posted 21 Apr 2010 6:31 pm     Reply with quote

Yes Lee, I suppose you could think of the Gm7 as a C9th as they are basically the same notes and scales. Stuart, I agree that the Bdmajor7 is good over the C9th or C11th. I will have to try leaving the 5th note of the Bdmaj7 chord as a F note, as I have been lowering it to a E note. For many years I have played a C9 chord by playing a Bdmaj with a flat 5. Stuart, I will have to agree Mooney, as you say,"Leaves the impression" of a particular chord. By that I mean Mooney seldom plays the whole chord, and if he does it is a raking action. As a general rule Mooney sticks to single notes,2 note harmony, or 3 note chords.
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Stuart Legg


Post Posted 22 Apr 2010 6:35 am     Reply with quote

Keith Hilton wrote:
Stuart, I will have to agree Mooney, as you say,"Leaves the impression" of a particular chord. By that I mean Mooney seldom plays the whole chord, and if he does it is a raking action. As a general rule Mooney sticks to single notes,2 note harmony, or 3 note chords.

I was trying to convey this with the term arpeggio, but I see now that fails to be an accurate description of Mooney's approach.
Keith, great posts and I'm sure you know a lot more about the Mooney style than I will ever learn and I appreciate you sharing.
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b0b


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 22 Apr 2010 7:51 am     Reply with quote

I just thought he was playing a C7, not a Gm. Can you point to a specific song where Mooney plays a Vm over the I chord?

Is it like B+C pedals at the IV fret?
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Herb Steiner


From:
Briarcliff TX 78669
Post Posted 22 Apr 2010 8:09 am     Reply with quote

Keith
You're describing one of the basic substitutions, known as the "5 minor sub." It's the basic rule that says if you see a dominant chord for, as an example, two measures, you can substitute for one measure the minor chord based on the 5th tone of the dominant chord.

This is what creates the famous "ii-V-I" progression, so this:

Tab:
| G7   | G7   | C   | C   |


becomes this:

Tab:
| Dm7   | G7   | C   | C   |


Extrapolating further, this common progression:

Tab:
| C   | C7   | F   | F   |
| G7   | G7   | C   | C   |


becomes this:

Tab:
| C   | Gm7   | F   | F   |
| Dm7   | G7   | C   | C   |


We can further substitute within the above "minor-to-dominant" by thinking of the G minor chord in terms of being a Bb-type chord. Example:

C7 = C E G Bb
C9 = C E G Bb D
C11 = C E G Bb F
C13 = C E G Bb A
Gm7 = G Bb D F
Gm9 = G Bb D F A
Bb = Bb D F
Bb6 = Bb D F G
BbMaj.9 = Bb D F A C
BbMaj.13 = Bb D F G A

Note all the common tones found in these chords. All these chords can be successfully substituted for a C7 chord, and will make your playing that much more interesting, as well as opening up new pathways in your brain for finding melodies to play over a basic dominant chord.
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My rig: steel guitar, seat, amp, volume pedal, and 2 cords.

Always remember this: The darkest hour is just before dawn...
So if you're gonna steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the best time to do it.


Last edited by Herb Steiner on 22 Apr 2010 10:33 am; edited 2 times in total
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Storm Rosson


From:
Silver City, NM. USA
Post Posted 22 Apr 2010 8:30 am     Reply with quote

Smile Thx Herb that explanation really works for me ,kinda opened up some new roads to the same place .....hmmmm you know what I mean. Very Happy
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Keith Hilton


From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
Post Posted 22 Apr 2010 8:46 am     Reply with quote

Wonderful explanation Herb. bob Mooney uses the 5m agains the 1 chord, in one form or another, in just about all the uptempo songs I've heard him play on. Listen to the songs: Lonesome Onry and Mean, Are You Ready of the Country, Ain't Livin Long Like This, and Are You Sure Hank Done It This Way. These are all Waylon Jennings songs you can see and hear Ralph play on You Tube. bob, do this: Have someone play a C major chord. Then against it you play some C notes at the the 6th fret. Play these notes as a triad at the 6th fret-- 4,5,6--with the pedal that raises the 5th string a whole tone. Doing this gives you a Gminor on your guitar, but you will be playing it against the person playing a C major chord. By the way, Emmons used this concept extensively on the tune he wrote titled, "Wills Point".
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Brian McGaughey


From:
Seattle, WA USA
Post Posted 22 Apr 2010 10:13 am     Reply with quote

This thread is like a vein of gold, and Herb's post is the HUGE nugget. Thank you. That explains a lot...
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Herb Steiner


From:
Briarcliff TX 78669
Post Posted 22 Apr 2010 10:39 am     Reply with quote

I should add that when I said the listed chords could successfully be substituted for a C7, I meant to say when appropriate to the arrangement of the song.

Not all of those chords, in and of themselves, will be appropriate in every situation. But knowing them allows me to conceive of different melody centers from which to solo, primarily on the C6 tuning.
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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
Allison String Instruments
My rig: steel guitar, seat, amp, volume pedal, and 2 cords.

Always remember this: The darkest hour is just before dawn...
So if you're gonna steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the best time to do it.
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Billy Knowles


From:
Kenansville, N. C. 28349 usa
Post Posted 22 Apr 2010 11:00 am     Mooney Reply with quote

Ralph used this 5m over the 1 in a lot of the old Buck Owens songs.
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Keith Hilton


From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
Post Posted 22 Apr 2010 11:23 am     Reply with quote

Yes Billy you are correct, but I didn't know if bob could find examples of those old songs being done on You Tube.
Herb, I have a question. My girl friend's daughter lives in Austin, and my girl friend is originally from the Dallas area. She is wanting to take a trip to Austin in late May. I have always wanted to play live in a band with Overby, Trevino,Hooker,Flores or any of the other great players from that area. If I bring my guitar, when my girl friend and I come to Austin, do you think I could find a place that would let me sit in with some of these great players? Do you have any suggestions of playes to hang out an jam?
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Herb Steiner


From:
Briarcliff TX 78669
Post Posted 22 Apr 2010 11:42 am     Reply with quote

Keith
Your request might be specifically hard to fill, since none of the guys you mention live in the Austin area, and infrequently work here.

There are always country bands playing in little joints around town on the weekends, though not of the quality of Hooker/Flores/Trevino. But fun to play with, nonetheless, and you wouldn't need a fancy resume' to sit in with them.

You could definitely sit in with the country band I play with, the Tom Teboe Band, as that music would be right up your musical alley. We usually play 3 or 4 gigs a month, generally in Seguin, New Braunfels, or San Antonio areas... 50-80 miles south of Austin.
_________________
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
Allison String Instruments
My rig: steel guitar, seat, amp, volume pedal, and 2 cords.

Always remember this: The darkest hour is just before dawn...
So if you're gonna steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the best time to do it.
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Ray Minich


From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
Post Posted 23 Apr 2010 7:29 pm     Reply with quote

In Winnie's book, in the copedant section, it shows a tuning for Ralph Mooney's guitar, with the caption something to the effect that he had two pedals he didn't describe what they did.

This wouldn't be them two pedals would it?

My favorite Moon ear candy is is work on "I'll Go Back to Her" by Waylon.

Still can't figure out for sure where he was on the neck or what strings he was hitting. There are some raises in there that sound like 5 half steps long...

Great thread, maybe I'll crack some of them nuts yet.

PS: Got to watch Herb at work for an evening a month or so ago. Thanks for 4 hour lesson kind sir... Very Happy

Got the Tom Teboe poster on the wall here in the shop.
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