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Post new topic C6th copedant.....Is there a 'standard' these days.?
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Author Topic:  C6th copedant.....Is there a 'standard' these days.?
David Hartley


Post Posted 2 Nov 2009 3:44 am     Reply with quote

What is the 'standard' tuning and pedal set-up?

Hi or Low 1st string etc? ie...G or D?

David Hartley
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Last edited by David Hartley on 2 Nov 2009 5:47 am; edited 2 times in total
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Ryan Barwin


From:
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Post Posted 2 Nov 2009 4:24 am     Reply with quote

Here's your basic C6th copedent:


- P4 P5 P6 P7 P8 RKL
D-------------------
E--------F-----------
C-----------D-----B-
A-B---------B--------
G---- F#--------------
E--------Eb----------
C------------- C#----
A-B------------------
F-----F#------E------
C-----D-------A-----


This is everything you need. If you wanted to add more levers, you'd want to raise string 4 from A to Bb on RKR, raise string 3 from C to C# on LKL, and lower string 4 from A to Ab on string 4. That's pretty much in order of priority, if you're going to add additional levers.

I think you'll definitely prefer the D on top. It's better for single-note melody playing, and works just like the first string F# on E9th. The G can be useful too, for chords, and cause you get the 1-3-5 dobro thing, but in my opinion, you should use the D. It's far more popular than the G, and has pretty much become the standard.
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Greg Cutshaw


From:
Corry, PA, USA
Post Posted 2 Nov 2009 5:37 am     Reply with quote

I agree with Ryan above.

Here's my D-10 copedant. The C6th D to D# change acts like the F# to G change on E9th. The C to C# change on C6th acts like the E to F knee lever on E9th.

In order of usage, here's my priority for C6th Knee levers:

A to Bb
C to C#
D to D#
C to B
E to F
A to Ab

I actually have the E to F change on my E9th left knee vertical. The MSA body is so compact that I can easily reach it with my left knee while playing the C6th neck.

The C to C# change will essentially give you the equivalent of the G string on top by moving the bar up 3 frets. So you can have the D on top and get the use of the high G also, just in another fret position. The high D is very useful for chords also if you use the D to D# change and it opens up a lot of E9th chromatic like sounds (it's the equivalent of the F# string on E9th).


Tuning in pdf format

Tuning in Excel format




Greg
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Roger Rettig


From:
An Englishman in Naples, FL
Post Posted 2 Nov 2009 6:36 am     Reply with quote

I'd respectfully suggest that, IF you have the D on the first string (my choice, too; as Ryan says, it's great for single-note playing) then raising the third string a half-step becomes a very important 'pull'. It works like E9's E-F lever (in principle, at least), and allows the major chord to be found three frets above 'zero'.

I've just acquired an Emmons D-10 with just two 'knees' on C6th, and I'm really torn between the A-Bb (it has that now) and the C to C#. My other 'knee' is lowering the 3rd - I may well choose to lose that one in favour of the 3rd string 'raise'.
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Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post Posted 2 Nov 2009 7:49 am     Reply with quote

Here is a tuning chart from some years ago:


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Ken Pippus


From:
Lake Oswego, OR
Post Posted 2 Nov 2009 8:55 am     Reply with quote

The question which was originally asked was whether there is a current standard for C6 Copedants. I think the answers received thus far have very convincingly made the case that the answer is no, once you get past 5+1.

KP
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b0b


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 2 Nov 2009 9:11 am     Reply with quote

I think that the standard as it has evolved today includes the original 5+1, plus:

first string tuned to D, not G
C to C# knee lever
A to Bb knee lever

This is what I see most often. The first string D and the C to C# lever go hand-in-hand, because that's how you get the "5th on top" inversion without the high G. A lot of people have the A to Bb lever and say they find it necessary.
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Greg Cutshaw


From:
Corry, PA, USA
Post Posted 2 Nov 2009 10:20 am     Reply with quote

I've been watching this topic over many threads for quite a while now. You can play the C6 tuning quite well with 5+1 with either the G or D on top.

If you add in the C to C# and A to Bb levers, along with the D on top, you can play all the classic C6th stuff we know and love. But you also get a ton of the E9th sounds and changes and all of a sudden the line between E9th and C6th gets a little more blurred. You can now play more slides and find full 3 string grips for melody notes without going all over the neck. Along this vein, I find the D to D# knee quite helpful.

If you go a bit further and add the E to F and A to Ab changes, you can modernize your C6 sound a bunch by adding easy to find 6/9 and major 9th chords.

If you want to play a lot of Chalker's stuff, you're going to want the A to Bb knee.

Save yourself the grief of updating your guitar in the future if buying a new guitar and allow yourself at least 5 knees on C6th and plan on using 3 of them a whole heap.

Greg
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Rick Schmidt


From:
Carlsbad, CA. USA
Post Posted 2 Nov 2009 2:04 pm     Reply with quote

Greg is right on the money IMO! Sure you can do alot with the bare bones tuning, but as musical as you are David I'd think you'd want all that's possible from the tuning. The "blurring" that Greg speaks of is to me what makes the tuning sound less dated and jazzier.

Another change that you might consider is one that lowers the middle G to F and raises the low C to D. It's nice to have an F in the middle range somewhere!
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David Hartley


Post Posted 2 Nov 2009 4:01 pm     Hi Reply with quote

b0b.. You're looking cool in them shades !!,,,
Roger.. Nice J200...Hope you're well.

This is very important for me.. I am studying it all in my brain.. (you guys must know what I mean when I say this, but (it's kinda sad really what my brain is going to bed thinking about.. pedals and licks and sh*t)! whoops, wrong section Hartley almost got banned) ! I hope I am not the only steel player who does this..

I am being lent a D10 to try next week..

I really appreciate your replies,

David (looking for my own copedant, wrong section, I must get some sleep as I'm fed up of 4 hours per night 'cos of my back aching) Hartley

PS.. (between you guys and me)... I have ben told not to even bother looking at Paul Franklin's set-up on the C6th, . . . . . . ? I think I need something more 'standard'

Was John Hughey's a 'standard' C6th set-up ?
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b0b


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 2 Nov 2009 4:15 pm     Reply with quote

<center>Jimmy Day


Buddy Emmons

</center>
People add a lot of things just as they do on E9th, but these two are the basic old school and new school C6th standards.
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Ryan Barwin


From:
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Post Posted 2 Nov 2009 4:31 pm     Reply with quote

Neither Paul Franklin's or John Hughey's copedent is totally standard.

Hughey had the standard C6th copedent, with a few additional, though not uncommon changes.


Edit: Hughey's 10th string P8 change drops the string three semitones to an A.


Franklin's C6th copedent has a lot of weird (and confusing) changes not used by anyone else, however it contains the all the standard changes moved around.


Edit: Franklin's 10th string LKL change also drops the string to an A.


You can really see the evolution of the C6th setup, from the most basic 5+1 Day copedent with the G on top, to Buddy Emmons 5+4 with the D on top, to Hughey's evolution of Emmons' setup with 6+5, to Paul Franklin's ultra-modern setup, which takes full advantage of the mechanical capabilities of his guitar.
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David Mason


From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
Post Posted 3 Nov 2009 4:31 am     Reply with quote

Doug Jernigan & Dave Easley are my favorite users of the tuning, and they also both have some odd stuff in there. I figure it up the back way - if I don't understand it, I probably don't need it, i.e. what song can't I play without it? Ummm. Shocked
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Herb Steiner


From:
Briarcliff TX 78669
Post Posted 3 Nov 2009 5:53 am     Reply with quote

I use Buddy's setup, but without the D# raise on p.8, yielding a #11 note. I would put it on, but I'd have to add a bellcrank to that crossbar, which would necessitate dismantling more of my PP's undercarriage than I'd really care to do at the moment.

That right there's a disadvantage to having a PP, for you PP-bashers. Laughing

No biggie though, I make do with what the Lord gave me, as well as Mike Cass and Bobby Bowman. Wink
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Ryan Barwin


From:
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Post Posted 3 Nov 2009 7:09 am     Reply with quote

Herb Steiner wrote:
I use Buddy's setup, but without the D# raise on p.8, yielding a #11 note. I would put it on, but I'd have to add a bellcrank to that crossbar, which would necessitate dismantling more of my PP's undercarriage than I'd really care to do at the moment.

I had that change on P8, but I got rid of it. I find the 11th is much more useful than the #11th, and it's not that hard to pull the string up a half step with your finger behind the bar, when I do need the #11 (which is not very often.)
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