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Post new topic Who invented the C6 copedent on D10 PSGs of today?
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Author Topic:  Who invented the C6 copedent on D10 PSGs of today?
Stuart Legg


Post Posted 11 Aug 2009 12:23 pm     Reply with quote

Who invented the C6 copedent on D10 PSGs of today?
Speculation welcome.
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Larry Bell


From:
Englewood, Florida
Post Posted 11 Aug 2009 12:49 pm     Reply with quote

If I remember correctly, in a Forum discussion YEARS ago, Buddy Emmons told us that Jimmy Day was responsible for many of those changes. They all make sense -- I VI II V progressions are so common in Western Swing. The raising and lowering 1/2 tone of the 3rd and 4th strings on knee levers is a Buddy Emmons extension. Only the C to B change was considered 'standard' in years past.

-- added later --
I noticed that Buddy has been posting some lately -- maybe he'll see this one.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessy S/D-12 8x8, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Fox Vintage 5F8B Amp
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Bo Legg


Post Posted 11 Aug 2009 1:29 pm     Reply with quote

So the tuning started out with C6 with a C to B change for a long time and then different people keep adding to it until it got to where it's at today.
That explains why the tuning is like one person started building a great elevator for the Empire State Building and then a lot of others came along and kept changing the plans and then the end results was a great elevator but it only stops at the same 4 floors. The bathroom split from the bedroom with 2 floors between and I have to zig zag up some stairs to get from room to room. I think you get my drift.
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Larry Bell


From:
Englewood, Florida
Post Posted 11 Aug 2009 2:17 pm     Reply with quote

no -- that was the only knee lever change. I believe I said 'many of those changes' -- I was referring to the five pedal changes that have been standards for a long while. Sorry if I wasn't specific enough.

the other changes were the II9 change (D9), the VI7 change (A7), the IV9 change (F9) and a couple that gave Ma7 or Ma9 chords (usually on P4 and P7, respectively). With those the I VI II V I progression was playable within a couple of frets and with several variations. Inherent in that were the P5+P6 combination for a 7b9 or dim chord and a bunch of others.

I believe the pedal changes came from the different nonpedal tunings, both with and without common slants.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessy S/D-12 8x8, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Fox Vintage 5F8B Amp
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Stuart Legg


Post Posted 11 Aug 2009 3:11 pm     Reply with quote

Larry, you sound very knowledgeable on this subject but it seemed to me when I analyzed the tuning that it was designed to make a 9th chord no matter what pedals you used.
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Larry Bell


From:
Englewood, Florida
Post Posted 11 Aug 2009 3:12 pm     Reply with quote

look again
both P4 (A to B) and P7 (A to B on 4 and C to D on 4) are Ma7 family chords. P4 gives CMa7 and P7 gives CMa9.

That's two of five pedals. None of the lever changes really give a 9th chord.

The Dom 7 or 9 chords are in very useful keys (e.g. I goes to VI or I goes to II). There are 3 of the 5 pedals that give Dom7 family chords. In western swing style progressions, the I chord is often a Ma7 or Ma6 chord and the IV and V chords are often Dom7 or Dom9 chords
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessy S/D-12 8x8, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Fox Vintage 5F8B Amp
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John Steele


From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
Post Posted 11 Aug 2009 3:39 pm     Reply with quote

I've been reading Larry's posts for a long time now, and his info is always very sound.
I was told that Bob White was responsible for introducing the pedal 7 Major7/Major9 change.
- John
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Charles Curtis


Post Posted 11 Aug 2009 3:57 pm     Reply with quote

OK, where is Carl Dixon?
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Earnest Bovine


From:
Los Angeles CA USA
Post Posted 11 Aug 2009 6:13 pm     Reply with quote

What I've read is:

The pedal that is usually on P7, raising C and A to D and B, was used by Alvino Rey in the early 1940's. But his tuning was E6 rather than C6.

The other modern C6 changes were on Ernie Tavares's pedal guitar designed in 1943 and built in 1946. His tuning was B flat 6.
Tab:

    1  2  3  4  5  6
D  +Eb
Bb     +B
G        +Ab
E            +F
Db              +D
Bb                 +B

altho 123456 is probably misleading since his narrow pedals allowed him to combine these 6 in any way.
This is very close to modern pedal C6, except that strings 4 and 5 are already lowered, due to the restriction that the changer can only raise, not lower.


Last edited by Earnest Bovine on 8 Jan 2011 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Stuart Legg


Post Posted 11 Aug 2009 7:51 pm     Reply with quote

Who's responsible for the BooWah pedal?
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Earnest Bovine


From:
Los Angeles CA USA
Post Posted 11 Aug 2009 8:07 pm     Reply with quote

Stuart Legg wrote:
Who's responsible for the BooWah pedal?
Jerry Byrd would often change between C and C#. And Ernie Tavares had that on his pedal #6, but I'm not sure that he did it before Jerry. The additional changes (BooWah) are natural extensions of that change when you add the low F and C strings.
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Earnest Bovine


From:
Los Angeles CA USA
Post Posted 11 Aug 2009 8:33 pm     Reply with quote

I'm sure that guys played G7 this on non-pedal guitars since the 1930s:
Tab:

E    3       = G
C
A    2       = B
G
E    1       = F
C

so that pedal originally just duplicated the old slant.
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Larry Bell


From:
Englewood, Florida
Post Posted 12 Aug 2009 6:11 am     Reply with quote

Alvino Rey used many elements of the 'standard' C6 pedals for many years on an Electra-Harp.

I believe one of his later tunings is included in b0b's list of tunings click here You have to translate from E6 to C6.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessy S/D-12 8x8, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Fox Vintage 5F8B Amp
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John Poston


From:
Albuquerque, NM, USA
Post Posted 12 Aug 2009 9:03 am     Reply with quote

I believe the pedal 5 6 7 changes were received by Moses at the burning bush. They survived, hidden in the apocrypha, and were passed along through the many Jewish and Freemason musicians of the early jazz era. Once suitable recording technology had been invented, these changes became readily heard by others and were soon adapted by all those who aspired to unlock the mysteries.
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Billy Tonnesen


From:
R.I.P., Buena Park, California
Post Posted 12 Aug 2009 11:28 am     Reply with quote

My first recollections of C6th was possibly with Bob White and Peewee Whitewing when they both were with Hank Thompson in the 50's and then followed by Bobby Black. Could be wrong !
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Earnest Bovine


From:
Los Angeles CA USA
Post Posted 8 Jan 2011 3:09 pm     Reply with quote

I just corrected my old post on the Ernie Tavares Bflat6 to say "strings 4 and 5 are already lowered.." instead of "5 and 6".
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Ryan Barwin


From:
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Post Posted 8 Jan 2011 3:27 pm     Reply with quote

From "Ask Buddy" on buddyemmons.com:

Quote:
Three different steel players influenced the pedal choices for my first C6 setup: Bob White, Jimmy Day, and Speedy West. My eight string Bigsby had an E6th tuning like Speedy's and one of the changes was in part, the equivalent of our 5th pedal. The 7th pedal was a Bob White change he used on Hank Thompson records. The other was a cross between changes Jimmy Day had on his Wright Custom that raised the 1st and lowered the 5th with separate pedals. I combined the two on one pedal and made it the 6th pedal. The 8th pedal was another Jimmy Day or Jerry Byrd change that raised the middle C 1/2 tone. I added the boo-wah lower to it. When we went to 10 string Sho~Buds, I added whatever 9th and 10th string raises or lowers that were possible, as it didn't have the capability of raising and lowering the same string. When the Emmons guitar came out, it allowed raises and lowers of all strings so I went the full route on the bass end and set the rest of the tuning as it is today. It's possible to get a reasonable facsimile of big band sounds on the C6 tuning and Curly Chalker was an excellent example.


http://buddyemmons.com/_board/0000043f.htm
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