Bill Lawrence pickups

Jim Hollingsworth · From: Way out West

Hi guys, I am trying to see if anyone on the Forum has experience with Bill Lawrence pickups made by " Bill Lawrence Products" - not THE Bill lawrence of Corona, CAlifornia fame. I was offered as pair of them but it seems they were made by Bill's old partners not himself. Anyway, is anybody familiar with them & how they sound, etc?
Thanks ! Jim

Ken Mizell · From: Lakeland, Florida, 33809, USA

I was wondering the same thing.

Anybody know of a dealer? I was kind of interested in a BL710.
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Ken Mizell · From: Lakeland, Florida, 33809, USA

I found this:

http://wildepickups.com/Home_Page.html

This appears to be THE Bill Lawrence. Does anyone know the rest of the story?
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Jim Hollingsworth · From: Way out West

I spoke with a guy from Bill Lawrence Products and they are selling the L-705 pickup that Bill et. al. developed in the 80's. It seems legit enough but I know that the pickup Paul; Franklin uses is the L-710 from the real Bill Lawrence. The 705 is a humbucker with blades not pole pieces like the 710 has. So I am trying to see if anyone is hep to the 705's v.s. the 710's.....

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Those "reissued" 705's are not made by Bill Lawrence, although they are supposed to be identical to the original ones. Bobbe Seymour is selling the new "reissued" pickups. I haven't seen any reports on how these are compared to the originals (except for Bobbe and as much as I like Bobbe, he has a music store and obviously wants to sell product). There are some other 705 knock off's around that were made for a short period after Bill Lawrence sold his part of "L&L" sales to his partner George Lewis (George L's). The knockoff's were not very good and didn't last long.

My 81 Franklin came with original Bill Lawrence 705's (chrome wraparound on the pickups). I replaced them with 710's in late 1999 and still have the 710's in my Franklin. The difference, that I heard, was the 710's had a little more clarity or "string separation". But my Franklin sounded like a Franklin, it didn't change the characteristic sound and I use the same amp settings with the 710's as I did with the 705's. Paul Franklin has guitars with the original 705's on them and guitars with the 710's according to his Father.

Don Sulesky · From: Citrus County, FL, Orig. from MA & NH

I bought the 705's from Jack and put them on my Emmons and did not like them.
Like Jack I turned around and sold them and put on a pair of 710's I bought from Bobbe and love them.
Jack has heard my Emmons many times and has told me my Emmons still sounds like an Emmons.
Don

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Jzchak Wajcman is a former business partner of Bill Lawrence who retained the company name - "DBA as Bill Lawrence Products."

Lawrence really doesn't have the time or patience for legal battles, he'd rather stay in his laboratory and make up new stuff - I've been reading the history of Fender lately, and was struck by the resemblances between Leo Fender and Bill. If Lawrence wanted to pursue the new Fender/Gibson model of suing your way to riches, he did invent the switching system on the Gibson L6S that chooses different coils from two humbuckers - he could sue Paul Reed Smith, Taylor, Ibanez & Music Man for stealing it... he invented the solderless cords that his former employee George L stole, he taught Larry DiMarzio and Kent Armstrong how to make pickups, Seymour Duncan has stolen the L500 "Dimebag Darrell" pickup... but Lawrence owns some manufacturing patents that means he gets a few pennies from every legit humbucker made in America, so he doesn't plan to spend any time in court.

Needless to say, I'd rather buy pickups from the guy who invented them and is still improving them. The fun thing is when you call them up, Becky gets your questions and relays them to Bill - if she lets him get on the phone, he'll talk for hours and both befuddle you with engineering details and gas about the old days, and newer days (he's been designing for Fender the past few decades too). Fender tried to get him to design the pickups for both their new Eric Johnson & Eddie Van Halen guitars, but they were too air-headed for Lawrence to waste any time with.... he ain't star-struck, for sure.

The Wajcman-made guitar pickups have a reputation for microphonic squealing. The thing to know about the real ones is that they're very wide-ranged, and can do very different things depending on how you wire them and the other parts of your signal chain - cords, EQ, speakers etc.

Ken Mizell · From: Lakeland, Florida, 33809, USA

Great info and insight. Thanks all. Looks like the web site link I posted is for the REAL Bill Lawrence, and the REAL BL p/u's. Looks like it's best to buy directly from THE man himself.

I want to replace my original Mullen p/u with a humbucker, and have been debating switching to either a Geo L's E66 or a BL710. I know my Mullen will still sound like a Mullen, and I will still sound like me - I just want a humbucker. I had an original BL705 on my old Sho-Bud S10 in the early 80's, and it worked wonders for it. Guys report using E66 and BL710 in Mullen with nice results.
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Steeless.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

A couple more comments. 1. Bill Lawrence does not use the coil resistance (ohms) as a paramater when building pickups. Pickups are "AC" devices and he uses AC and magnetic parameters in his process. Thus his pickups are consistent from one to the other but can have different DC wire resistance measurements.

2. We don't really know what kind of business agreement Bill Lawrence had with George Lewis when they were "partners" in the "L&L Sales" - the L's stood for Lawrence and Lewis. When Bill decided to "get out of the business" and leave Nashville and sold his part to George Lewis we don't have access to the actual legal written agreement and the particulars on what the sale actually contained or allowed, so it can't really be stated that George Lewis "stole" whatever from Bill.

Mike Poholsky · From: Kansas, USA

Thanks for clearing this up, some. Is the LXR-16 actually manufactured by Bill Lawrence? If so, how does it differ, physically and tonally, from the 710? The website is a little lacking on information.
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

T. C. Furlong · From: Lake County, Illinois, USA

Regarding Lawrence L-710 pickups...I have heard that there are two versions of the L-710. The old version is 30K ohms and apparently is very similar to the L-705 original chrome surround. The later L-710s are lower impedance. I have a set of the 30K older versions in a Franklin and they sound great. Both versions look the same with two rows of pole pieces.

Does anyone have the definitive skinny on this?

TC

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

There is some testimonial about the new 705 pickups with the black bands - for example here: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=119691 - there are some very fine players out there that like them.

My favorite pedal steel pickup ever is the old chrome-band 705. I haven't had a chance to get a new 705 at this point. I admit that I would far prefer to buy a set of reissue 705 pickups made by Bill himself - but he doesn't make one. As long as I can find old 705's, I guess I'll continue to do that.

But I also have to admit that I haven't tried a Lawrence pickup on a pedal steel yet that I didn't like. The 912 on my Zum U-12 is just fantastic. The 7XX series pickup that I tried seems to be a bit brighter, as did the XR-16 I tried, but they all sound good to me. I agree with Jack that they are a fundamentally different design - high DC resistance does not necessarily imply the big midrange AC impedance hump in a typical design, and Bill pioneered that approach.

The few times I've talked with Bill at NAMM, I found him fascinating, but perhaps that's because I'm an electrical engineer by training.

Mike Poholsky · From: Kansas, USA

OK? Dave, what is the 912 pickup? I don't see that listed anywhere.
_________________
Zumsteel 12 Universal
SGBB
ShoBud VP
'64 Fender Twin Reverb/Fox Rehab
Fender Steel King w/BW 1501-4
FX to Taste

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

910/912----So-called sidewinder. A BL innovation that stacked the coils on a different axis. Actually, I won't even attempt to describe that which I do not understand.

I got a 912 (on my own counsel, after-market) for my Carter and it was a poor match. I recall John Fabian saying 'yep' when I described that it wasn't happening. One of those unexplainable things. (no, it didn't sound like butt but it just wasn't inspiring). But it certainly is some people's 1st choice in other guitars.

Bill seems to move forward and evolve and it appears that he abandons and rejects old, good designs when he develops new ideas. The 705 is a twin-blade type of pickup. I think that Bill sneers at blades now---pole pieces or nothing. I guess it's like a painter wanting to destroy his old works (or a recording artist) because they no longer reflect where he's at, what he's thinking.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

There were two versions of the 710's. The first ones used a different magnet material and had a different sound and were not produced very long (I sent mine back to Bill and got them exchanged for the new version). The later, and current version uses a "conventional" magnet material.

As previously noted the DC ohms resistance has no bearing on a Lawrence pickup.

Dennis Manuel · From: Quesnel, B.C., Canada

I have heard the first 705 pickup the real Bill Lawrence manufactured was incased in black plastic, not the chrome wrap.

Is this true?

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

The only original model 705's that I saw had a chrome wrapping. The original's on my 81 Franklin were the chrome wrapped models.

The "knockoff's" that were made after Bill quit making them were black. The knockoff's were crap.

Steve Feldman · From: Central MA USA

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Yup - the 910/912 is just a different design. My only observation is that they have a bit less edge than the 7xx series, and perhaps a bit more oomph in the midrange. I love it on my Zum, which had a very good-sounding Truetone (wound to around 17.5K) on it before, but it was a bit thin for what I wanted. Plus this is humbucking, which is bloody useful in a helluvalotta situations I'm in.

Jerry Tillman · From: Florida

I wanted to put my 2 cents worth.I love Bill Lawrence pickups.He told me the blade magnets do not have the note seperation of pole magnets and I beleive him.I also beleive I have always heard every note that Paul Franklin has ever played.I have an MCI with two 705s and it sounds just like my 66 emmons that has its original pickups.One last cents,don,t sell anything that sounds good,it will keep you from greiving at a later date. thanks lakeshrk

Ulric Utsi-Åhlin · From: Sweden

Thanks for the primer on hoaxer´s guide to bucks,I
didn´t really know the ins & outs of the product
making use of Lawrence´s good name.McUtsi

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Actually I have sold a couple of the "new" 705's - encased in plastic- to several players whose opinions I respect- and they really like them.

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

I greatly prefer the 705 or the 805 to the 710.

Mitch Adelman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

So what I'm getting from this is that George L pickups don't have the note separation of a Bill Lawrence pickup because George L uses blades not poles. Could have fooled me listening to David Hartley!My carter has good separation with its George L. I didn't know Bill and George L were partners once.Interesting how they parted ways and have different ideas about note separation.
Now I'm really confused on all these pickup issues!

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