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Author Topic:  Just don't know - Day setup, Emmons steel
Curtis G. Greene


From:
Eure, North Carolina
Post Posted 1 Oct 2008 7:45 pm     Reply with quote

What is meant by the Day SET UP ON A EMMONS STEEL
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Richard Sinkler


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 1 Oct 2008 7:54 pm     Reply with quote

It's the way the pedals are set up. An Emmons setup has the raises on strings 5 & 10 on the first pedal and the Raises on strings 4 & 5 on the third pedal. The Day setup is reversed, that is the raises on strings 5 & 10 are on pedal 3 and the raises on strings 4 & 5 are on pedal 1. The second pedal raising the G#'s to A is on the second pedal in both setups.
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Brick Spieth


From:
San Jose, California, USA
Post Posted 1 Oct 2008 8:37 pm     Reply with quote

Am I correct in that Emmons and Day refer to the individuals and their copedants, and not the brand of guitar? Right? You can see how someone could wonder about a Day setup on an Emmons guitar.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 1 Oct 2008 9:25 pm     Reply with quote

Right. It has nothing to do with the brand of guitar. When Emmons and Day split the infamous Bud Issacs "Slowly" pedal, Emmons guitars didn't even exist yet.
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David Doggett


From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angels, Bahsten. and Philly)
Post Posted 2 Oct 2008 7:50 pm     Reply with quote

To say the same thing as Richard with different terminology, the pedals he describes are now generally called the A, B and C pedals, after the order Buddy Emmons put them in from left to right. Not knowing which order Buddy had them in, Jimmy Day put them in the reverse order of C, B and A, from left to right. So, Day setup on an Emmons guitar would be C, B, A. You can put either setup on any brand of guitar.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 3 Oct 2008 12:42 pm     Reply with quote

Thanks David. I meant to go back and put the letter designations in, but at my age, old-timers disease took over and I forgot.
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Andy Hinton


From:
Louisiana, USA
Post Posted 3 Oct 2008 6:42 pm     Day vs Emmons setup Reply with quote

Another difference that is very important is the knee levers ar also usually reversed. Andy H.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 3 Oct 2008 7:22 pm     Reply with quote

True on the knee levers if the ones that affect the E strings are on the left knee. Many have these knee levers in other positions. I don't normally associate the knee levers as part of the Day or Emmons setup, because they can be placed in different positions, legs, etc. The pedal positions are the main difference.
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John Bechtel


From:
Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.
Post Posted 3 Oct 2008 7:23 pm     Reply with quote

They were eventually, but; I think not originally!
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Richard Sinkler


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 6 Oct 2008 1:48 pm     Reply with quote

To expand on my last post, if you look in the copedents link on Bob's forum, Emmons has the E raises and lowers on his left knee. Jimmy Day has his E to F lever on LEFT KNEE LEFT (someone forget to tell him that it should be on Left KNee Right - but he played great anyway) and doesn't lower string 4 and the 8th string lower in on Right Knee Right.

Since I play with the pedals setup as C-B-A (Day style) but have my E raises and lowers on my left knee (not as Day has them), does this mean I don't play the Day setup?
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Bill Mayville


From:
Las Vegas Nevada
Post Posted 6 Oct 2008 2:43 pm     day or the Emmons setup Reply with quote

No matter what you do.
In my experience
The day setup works.
But.Anything works.Idon;t care what anyone thinks.
There is some reason why anyone would go to a Day setup.I don't know what it is. It takes much longer to learn and play with the Day setup.I don't care what anyone says.I have been helping students for twenty years. Same result. They don't catch on as quick.There is a reason for the Emmons setup.I am not going to point out, why it is MUCH quicker, with the Emmons setup.WE are talking about the factory standard.The left leg does most of the work.No splits with the legs.Who do you think helped set up the standard tuning.?
Day may work. Read Winny Winston. He was friends with the great Jimmy Day.He can explain it better.
Bill Mayville
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John Bechtel


From:
Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.
Post Posted 6 Oct 2008 2:58 pm     Reply with quote

To the best of my understanding, Emmons or Day Set~Up concerns only Pedals (A)–(B)–(C) or (C)–(B)-(A) and not the Knees! Knee~Levers are subject to many variations and locations, but; Pedals a,b and c only work 2-ways! (Forwards or backwards!) If you're a backwards type person, then you need them backwards, to be in sync with yourself! That's not saying which way is backward. It all depends whether you read them right to left or left to right! ha! As has been Posted before: “Emmons” is considered to be (A)–(B)–(C) and “Day” is considered to be (C)–(B)–(A). They're both backward to each other!
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Last edited by John Bechtel on 6 Oct 2008 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Charlie McDonald


From:
Rue de Lubeck, Texas
Post Posted 6 Oct 2008 3:10 pm     Reply with quote

Richard Sinkler wrote:
Since I play with the pedals setup as C-B-A (Day style) but have my E raises and lowers on my left knee (not as Day has them), does this mean I don't play the Day setup?

I don't know, but I do that too. It makes more sense to me ergonimically and musically.
Maybe it has to do with brain dominance, or the lack of it.
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Tracy Sheehan


From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Post Posted 7 Oct 2008 12:08 pm     Re: Reply with quote

IMHO it makes no difference which set up one uses.As Charlie Norris and i were discussing years ago plus many others.I can't recall the set ups being called a Day or Emmons set up before the internet came out.When we started playing pedal steel neither of us had even heard of Day or Emmonns.
I do remember setting in on others steel and visa versa many times we switched the rods over at the pedal.
The only difference is what one gets used to.I gave up trying to teach the 9th as i had reversed my 7th and 8th strings on the old 8 stringers.When i went to a 10 string i reversed the 9 and 10th.
That way i can rake across 8 strings for fat C6th chords on the 9th tuning with my thumb which you can't do having to skip the 9th string.
Years ago when the so called chromatic tuning came out, a friend of mne who has passed on (Harley Brendal) added them in between his 2nd a 4th string or something like that.I took his place one night in Billings Mt.as he was sick.I had to use the C6th only.
As Reece said about Julian Tharp it was like trying to land a 747 on a busy free way.Yep,a strange pedal set up and tuning.But never heard any one out play him.He was a monster player but never went pro except for a very short time.
So there.LOL.Tracy
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Paul Norman


From:
Washington, North Carolina, USA
Post Posted 7 Oct 2008 2:07 pm     Reply with quote

I have one guitar with Emmons set-up and
another with Day set up.
Should I change my name to Jimmy Emmons or
Buddy Day?
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Richard Sinkler


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 7 Oct 2008 10:21 pm     Reply with quote

Bill Mayville wrote:
Quote:
There is some reason why anyone would go to a Day setup.I don't know what it is. It takes much longer to learn and play with the Day setup.I don't care what anyone says


That is the biggest pile of BS I have ever read. If you have been helping students for 20 years and you see this as being a direct result of their playing the Day setup, you either have poor students or are a poor teacher.
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Charlie McDonald


From:
Rue de Lubeck, Texas
Post Posted 8 Oct 2008 1:40 am     Reply with quote

Simple rule:
Emmons by night, Day when it's light.
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Barry Blackwood


Post Posted 11 Nov 2008 11:27 am     Reply with quote

Bill Mayville said:
Quote:
There is some reason why anyone would go to a Day setup.I don't know what it is.

Because we can. Cool
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Roger Rettig


From:
An Englishman in Naples, FL
Post Posted 11 Nov 2008 12:33 pm     Reply with quote

There's no right or wrong way. I play 'Day' and see no reason to change. It is a bit of a nuisance in that most guitars I encounter are set up 'Emmons', so it's not easy for me to 'sit in' with a band. I try to noodle a bit on an 'Emmons' set-up when I can, but if my brain isn't totally engaged the results can be appalling.....

While 'Emmons' players predominate, there have been some great 'Day' players - Jimmy (of course), also Weldon Myrick, Hal Rugg and Tommy White.

I'm in good company!
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Ken Byng


From:
Southampton, England
Post Posted 11 Nov 2008 12:44 pm     Reply with quote

Roger
Many of the UK players play the 'Day' set up because that's the way that pedal steels came via Eric Snowball and courtesy of Gordon Huntley. I have played the Day way since I first started, and while I agree that it is not good when you sit in on an 'Emmons' set up, it does feel far more comfortable ergonomically to me (and my left ankle).
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Roger Rettig


From:
An Englishman in Naples, FL
Post Posted 11 Nov 2008 12:58 pm     Reply with quote

Absolutely, Ken - and that is why I started out 'Day', too. Mind you, I don't think I knew there was an alternative until a bit later, but the die was cast by then.

For what it's worth, I've always held that rocking one's left ankle to the left (rolling off and on the 3rd pedal while holding down the 2nd) is ergonomically easier than the reverse movement.

There are thousands who don't seem to have a problem with it, however.... Confused
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Richard Sinkler


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 12 Nov 2008 7:26 pm     Reply with quote

When I first started in 1971, I played Emmons setup as that is what came from the factory. When I had a local ZB repair man add knee levers to my guitar (still in 1971), he showed me his way of setting up his pedals (Day style) and he referred to them at the time as The Emmons and Day setups. That is when I changed to Day style AFTER being able to try the setup.

At this time, I barely knew of Buddy Emmons and had never heard of Jimmy Day.

This post was to expand on Tracy's post above. The terminology did exist before the internet, it's just that it is flashed in front of our eyes every day now, with the internet.
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Tamara James


Post Posted 13 Nov 2008 5:47 am     Reply with quote

Barry Blackwood wrote:
Bill Mayville said:
Quote:
There is some reason why anyone would go to a Day setup.I don't know what it is.

Because we can. Cool


I totally agree. Laughing



I'm impressed, Barry. I was thinking the same thing ..


Last edited by Tamara James on 13 Nov 2008 5:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Charlie McDonald


From:
Rue de Lubeck, Texas
Post Posted 13 Nov 2008 5:49 am     Reply with quote

Richard, I like how you put that.
Leaving aside my existential angst at why terminologies create choices, left to wonder why we must categorize ourselves...
I would say that the Emmons setup proved counter-intuitive for me.
I can't rationalize that great players make great music with the Emmons way;
and I can't say of the Day way: try it, you'll like it! There are potentially as many ways as there are people, and I find in this world you must find your own way.

I can only say I did try it, and the entire left foot and knee made sense to me.

If not for personal enjoyment, I can't see the need to play one way or another, and there are really many ways... like my lost C pedal, replaced by the A pedal, leaving a space on the left to give new expression in a setup that has become Charlie's way.
Isn't that the way it should be?
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Donny Hinson


From:
Balto., Md. U.S.A.
Post Posted 13 Nov 2008 7:35 am     Re: day or the Emmons setup Reply with quote

Bill Mayville wrote:
There is some reason why anyone would go to a Day setup.I don't know what it is.


One very good and logical reason is that it puts the most used pedals closer to the center of the guitar. Therefore, the player doesn't look quite as much like he's straddling a Clydesdale when he's playing
"Way To Survive". Laughing

Quote:
It takes much longer to learn and play with the Day setup.I don't care what anyone says.


While I may respect that opinion, I certainly can't agree with it.
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