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Topic: Baritone Steel ?? |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 8 Sep 2008 9:56 am |
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Hello !!
I think you're trying to define something that has ALREADY been defined..by prior usage..
As I said earlier ....
Since 1949 Webley Edwards on the Hawaii Calls Radio Shows has made reference to Baritone Hawaiian Guitars, usually playing the second part in the instrumental duets.
As in this re-released album, originally recorded in the late 50's.
Below is a picture of the sleeve, but as I've noticed that some of you are disinclined to read "In Depth" I'll reprint the relevant part.
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| "In addition the "Hawaii Calls" musicians introduce two sounds new to Hawaiian instrumental music. These are the tiny electric piano, chosen because this delightful new instrument give just the right exotic touch, and because the players think it so often sounds like one of their own guitars, and the "Baritone" steel guitar, with its eight deep-toned strings, which produces what the Hawaiians call "The fine, rich, dark sound" |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 8 Sep 2008 11:41 am
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Basilh, were the Hawaiian “baritones” tuned down about a 5th, or a whole octave? What were their scale lengths? Suppose the “first” guys got the terminology wrong – are we bound to stick with that?
Here’s what Wikipedia says (baritone guitar):
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| A standard guitar's standard tuning (from lowest string to highest) is E A D G B E. Baritone guitars are usually tuned a perfect fifth lower (A D G C E A), a perfect fourth lower (B E A D F♯ B), a major third lower (C F A♯ D♯ G C) or an octave lower. |
And if you look here (classical guitar), Niibori calls a guitar tuned down a 4th a bass guitar, and calls one tuned down an octave a contrabass (which everyone else calls a bass guitar).
So that is not much help.
It seems like in usage people are keying more on the scale length than the tuning range or the roots. If a steel guitar tuned lower has a scale length the same or a little longer than a standard steel, it is called a baritone, regardless of whether it is tuned a 4th, 5th, or octave lower. People would not seem inclined to call it a bass steel unless it had a substantially longer scale, approaching a bass guitar scale length. So maybe my idea that “baritone” should be used for roots tuned down a 4th or 5th, reserving bass for roots tuned down an octave, is probably not viable, considering past usage. (As Rosanne Rosannadanna would say - nevermind  ) |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 8 Sep 2008 12:20 pm
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Hi David, of course they got the terminology slightly wrong, because as you've guessed, they tuned it down a whole octave.
26" scale length MK1 Stringmasters were the norm, along with the long scale twin neck Magnatones..that the company provided to the Hawaii Calls show.
These Magnatones were played on stage at the broadcasts and public shows, but the players invariably used the Stringmasters on Record..
The 1953/4 onward multi neck Stringmasters came with a nut grooved for heavier strings.
The usual was A6th with the first string E (.030) and so on..
Danny Stewart, Barney Alvin Kalanikau Isaacs Jr., Jules Ah See, and the likes were proficient in that register.. |
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Chris Scruggs
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2008 4:55 pm
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Dave, you write:
"The problem with your reasoning is that you are assuming 10-string E9 steel is exactly parallel with regular guitar."
There is no "problem with my reasoning". It is my opinion and I am entitled to it as you are entitled to yours. I am "assuming" nothing and I do NOT see the steel as exactly parallel to a regular guitar. I begin my post with "I believe", which establishes that what I write is opinion with no disrespect to you. I would appreciate the same courtesy.
Best Regards,
Chris Scruggs |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 9 Sep 2008 6:49 pm
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Whoa, Cris. I apologize for the misunderstanding - poor choice of words on my part. I completely respect your reasoning on this, I was just trying to present another angle of reasoning for the discussion.
What I was trying to say is that the idea that E9 an octave lower should be called baritone because it overlaps the range of baritone guitar doesn't deal with the fact that the roots of E9 and say an A tuned baritone guitar are a 5th apart. So if you filled out the bottom root of E9 to make it parallel to standard guitar tuning, the way extended E9 and uni are, then dropping that whole tuning an octave would have the bottom strings with the same root and in the same octave as bass guitar. But 10-string E9 stops at B and doesn't have that bottom root, and that, plus having a 3rd above the top string of standard guitar, means that dropping an octave would overlap baritone guitar more than bass guitar (as you correctly reasoned), even though the roots would be a 5th apart. And, as you can see in my post above, your reasoning seems to fit with past usage, and I now admit that mine doesn't. People seem to consider the range and the scale length more important to the terms "baritone" and "bass" than the roots.
Now, if you lengthened the scale several inches, and dropped extended E9 or uni down an octave, that would be much like a 5 or 6 string bass guitar - same roots, same octave. I guess I was thinking more along those lines because I play uni. But dropping 10-string E9 down an octave, which is what this thread is really addressing, more overlaps a baritone guitar, like you said. I just got hung up on the roots.
So, bottom line, I didn't mean to imply your reasoning was flawed - it was well thought out and presented. I just used a poor choice of words to present a different line of reasoning (which doesn't seem relevant now). So shake hands partner, no harm intended.  |
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Chris Scruggs
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2008 10:22 pm
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No harm done, David. And yes, a .034" scale steel with a .105 gauge bass E string would be a mighty force to be reckoned with. Talk about a "fretless" bass!
Your friend, Chris |
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Keith Murrow
From:
Wichita, KS
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Posted 10 Sep 2008 7:59 pm
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| I would think that the large gauge wound strings required to get adequate tension for very low notes would also lead to an unacceptable amount of noise when sliding the bar around. |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 11 Sep 2008 1:44 am
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| Keith Murrow wrote: |
| I would think that the large gauge wound strings required to get adequate tension for very low notes would also lead to an unacceptable amount of noise when sliding the bar around. |
Probably, that's where the frowned upon technique of "Lifting the Bar" would seem to be the best approach, though I must say I've never had a problem with high "noise levels" from wound strings. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 11 Sep 2008 8:24 am
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| Flat-wounds or semi-flats and something like a Tribotone bar would help. Also, a longer scale length would help keep the string gauges smaller. |
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