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Jerry Dragon


From:
Gate City Va.
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 12:59 am    
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I have been reading two books on pedal steel guitar. They are for four pedals and three knee levers, standard E9 tuning.. No mention of more knee levers and pedals. So, my question is, once going beyond the four pedals and three knee levers is there a standard tuning for the other knee levers and pedals if you have them? Or, does one just tune them to ones personal taste and to fit they're personal style?

Thanx for all the help so far.
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Donny Hinson

 

From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 3:47 am    
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Well, it's more likely that 3 pedals and 4 levers is the "standard", but additional changes beyond those aren't really standardized yet. There's lot of possibilities, of course, but mastery of those first 7 changes should always be the primary goal. IMHO, 3+4 should keep most beginning players busy for about a decade. Cool

In general, I think most players (myself iuncluded) are missing more with what they already have than they are with what they don't have.
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 5:05 am    
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well spoken Donny.

Consider this for a moment. A Guitar player moves his fingers to form a chord or a scale. By moving his/her fingers up or down a fret or two in relationship with other fingers, a chord or scale is formed. A voicing.

The Pedal Steel Guitar pedals and knee levers do the same thing as fingers, they move some notes UP and some notes DOWN.

Does a guitar player ask..how many chords should I learn ? No..they start a journey, some learn 3 some learn 300, the trick is to understand how and why they were formed. The Pedal steel is not different, it just requires a whole lot more physical interaction with the Instrument, but you still have to know, or SHOULD know, why things are happening.

Now I don't know what books are being read on the subject but I can say this with a fair amount of accuracy. A TWO Pedal Steel where Pedal A raises strings 10 and 5 and Pedal B raises strings 6 and 3 along with two knee levers, lowering and raising strings 8 and 4 will send you into musical journey which can last for years. the trick is to understand what is actually happening and how the music is being developed.

If a player can grasp an understanding of the relative positions that are offered with this 2+2 setup, adding or using additional changes will become a normal progression in the learning process.

Is there a standard ? Sure, the A,B and C pedals have become the E9th standard , just as a few knee lever changes have become standard. Raise E's, lower E's. drop the 2nd string. From there we can all argue over what should be standard. Raise 1, raise 2, lower 9, lower 6, raise 7...
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Brian Kurlychek


From:
Maine, USA
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 6:27 am    
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I have 3X5 and I am really only using A+B and the two Knees that raise and lower my E's most of the time. I haven't found but one song where I needed to use the LKV and only a few where I need to use any RK levers. Pedal C hardly at all either.

Someday I will need to use them, and they will be there.
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Chris LeDrew


From:
Canada
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 8:00 am    
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I recently learned Hughey's "I Love You So Much" and it involves 2+2. AB pedals and raise/lower E's.

I think 3+2 is perfect for a new player, with the knees lowering and rasing the E's. Lots there for sure.

Before 1975, most D10's only came standard with 2 levers. How was so much music made with so few levers? Smile
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Charles Davidson

 

From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 8:36 am    
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The A and B pedals plus two levers that raise and lower the E's should keep a beginner busy for awhile.With these two pedals and two levers you can get your Maj,Maj6ths,7ths,6ths,dim,aug,minors,9ths,chords etc,plenty to start with[just my opinion]DYKBC.
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Joshua Grange


From:
Los Angeles, California
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 10:06 am    
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I think once you spend enough time with the basic pedals and knees you will discover for yourself what extra changes you would want to have.

Perhaps one day you'll be doodling around and hear something in your head, try to find it on different string groupings, probably say 'Oh if only I could get THIS string to do THIS', and continue on till you find a way to play what you heard, probably using some group of strings you've never used before in a strange new position, maybe even a bar-slant.

You will file away that wish list and one day make the leap and start experimenting. Yes there are some common extra pedals and knees, but they tend to make more sense after you put in some time playing with the basics.

I remember having a conversation years ago with a great steeler, and I asked him all about which levers did what. It made little sense to me at the time, whereas now I have enough experience to be completely confused.
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Earnest Bovine


From:
Los Angeles CA USA
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 10:51 am    
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Joshua Grange wrote:
once you spend enough time with the basic pedals and knees you will discover for yourself what extra changes you would want to have.

I agree 100%.
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Twayn Williams

 

From:
Portland, OR
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 10:59 am    
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Joshua Grange wrote:
I remember having a conversation years ago with a great steeler, and I asked him all about which levers did what. It made little sense to me at the time, whereas now I have enough experience to be completely confused.


Ain't it the truth! Mr. Green
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Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 12:20 pm    
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Im relatively new to this instrument (2 years, soon to be 3). I understand the E lowers and raises and undertand why they are described as being "essential".
I use em all the time and would be lost in some spots without em.

I dont understand the other two lever changes as being "essential". I realize the fault is mine, Im a newb, and someday a lightbulb might go off in my head and I will say "ah, THATS why they are described as essential" but for now...I use these other two levers NEVER. I have no clue whats on my RKR...does something to string 1 I think.

The 2 and 9 lower (RKL for me,and yes it has a half stop on 2). I dont understand why this is an essential change. on Boutons dvd he explains the lever with a grand total of ONE lick using it, and this is a bedroom lick that i will never use in a song. Ive asked others how this change is used and havent gotten many examples. Its usually just one passing note in a super long phrase, or a unison "rock" lick.

Again, I understand the shortcoming is MINE, no one elses fault that i havent figure this lever out yet, but I dont understand why this change is considered 'essential'?
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Brint Hannay

 

From:
Maryland, USA
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 12:44 pm    
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I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, but I would say the closest to an "essential" change on the "2 and 9" lever is the 2nd string D note. It gives lots of melodic possibilities, both single string and harmonized, out of the no-pedals and A&B pedals positions.

Personally, I use the 9th string lower a LOT also. One guitar I have not customized since acquiring it lacks this change, and playing it shows me just how much I use that change!

The 2nd string to C# is a nice little extra, but I could very easily live without it.
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Larry Bell


From:
Englewood, Florida
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 12:51 pm    
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Ben,
The 2nd string is very important in many ways. In order for it to add the most value, you should be able to have a C#, D, D#, and possibly E on that string. The C# gives you a cool unison note with the 5th string with the A pedal. You can let off the pulls and they will split in opposite directions -- cool.

At D, that note is what makes a 7th chord (also called a Dominant 7 chord -- the note is the b7 tone of the scale). That b7 tone is a natural passing chord for the I to IV chord change (e.g., C C7 F)

At D#, that note is the 'personality note' for a Major7 chord. Strings 8, 6, 5, 2 = Ma7 chord

E gives you a unison note with 4.

That's just the 2nd string. The 9th string is similar. It starts out at D -- see above. Then it is lowered to C# on that same knee lever.

If you think in terms of what a scale tone sounds like and how it functions you will be able to build your own licks. If you understand WHY a lick sounds cool you have the knowledge required to use that same idea in other ways. A lick turns into a musical idea that can be used in many different ways. Just my two cents.

There are many pedal or lever changes that are useful but all are more useful if you understand what it SOUNDS LIKE and WHAT SCALE TONES MOVE and HOW.
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Twayn Williams

 

From:
Portland, OR
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 1:41 pm    
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Ben Jones wrote:
The 2 and 9 lower (RKL for me,and yes it has a half stop on 2). I dont understand why this is an essential change.


I use the 2nd string feel stop 1/2 step lower (D# to D) as another way to get a minor chord:

Using strings 1,2,5:

Cmaj - fret 1 - CEG
Dmin - fret 3 - DFA w/lever
Emin - fret 5 - EGB w/lever
Fmaj - fret 6 - FAC
Gmaj - fret 8 - GBD
Amin - fret 10 - ACE w/lever
Bmin - fret 12 - BDF# w/lever (out of key)
Cmaj - fret 13 - CEG

Using the whole step lower on the 2nd string (D# to C#) gives a nice suspension:

Using strings 1,2,5 at the 1st fret:

Csus2 - CDG (1 2 5)

release lever

Cmaj - CEG (1 3 5)
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Joshua Grange


From:
Los Angeles, California
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 1:48 pm    
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Speaking of essential, I've been sitting down with a 2+1 lately and have had a lot of fun and have learned much. One can argue the 'essential' nature of the C pedal and the E to F lever. In any case they are super amazingly useful. I think, Ben, a better definition of the other levers etc would be 'standard' as opposed to 'essential'.
Having said that, I miss the hell out of the 2nd string D# to D change when its not there.
Try this:
- One whole step above open position ( in C it would be the 10th fret ) use the B pedal and the half step 2nd string lower lever. Voilà! A pretty major pentatonic, no wrong notes on any string scale. Add the A pedal for a Maj 7 chord.
- A and B 'pedals down' C major chord ( so 3rd fret ) and add the 2nd string half step lower to add the 4 sus note ( as opposed to the #11 that is there without the lever) Very useful!
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Jory Simmons

 

From:
Elkhorn, Wisconsin, USA
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 2:00 pm    
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You can play just about anything you hear on the radio top 30 Country with 3&2......Nuff said! Jory
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Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 2:07 pm    
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Thank you all very much!!
I will be sitting down at my guitar in a couple hours when I get home from work and will be trying this stuff out.

I agree about the distinction between "standard" and "essential" as it applies to the 2/9 and whatever the heck is on my RKR Embarassed
I would call them "standard" myself , not essential. But i have seen so many refer to them as "essential". I espeically hear this in threads were someone is asking what kind of guitar to get and a very common bit of advice is "make sure it has 3 pedals and at least 4 knees, they are essential".
Not bad advice by any means. I just cant really call em essential when I have barely ever used em in three years..but then I am still learning so who am I to say.

Maybe after trying out some of your suggestions I will feel differently about em. i have a lesson coming up and have asked my teacher/friend for some insight into this change. hopefully that will help also.

thanks again!
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Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 5:59 pm    
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Quote:
Strings 8, 6, 5, 2 = Ma7 chord


This is probably a really embarassing beginners question but I am gonna ask it anyway.

I only wear a thumb and two finger picks on index and middle finger. How are chords with more than three notes on non consecutive strings played?
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James Collett

 

From:
San Dimas, CA
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 6:12 pm    
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I am more of a newbie than you are (year and a half) but I find that you only need to play a triad to get the feel you want (now- which three strings to pick depends!)all providing, of course tat you're playing with a group to supply the rest of the chord.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 6:54 pm    
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The second string lower (D# to D) is essential if you use the 2nd string at all. If you don't lower the second string, the note on that string will be outside of the scale at the II and V7 fret positions.

Without the lever, the 2nd string is very confusing because it's out of key half of the time. Get in the habit of pushing it "just in case" whenever you're at the II or V7 fret position. Having that note available for your melodies will greatly expand your playing style.

Remember that the pitch of the 2nd string is between the 4th and 5th strings. Get in the habit of playing strings in order 3-1-4-2-5 and 5-2-4-1-3, alternating thumb and finger. Pieces of melodies, all over the place.
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Joshua Grange


From:
Los Angeles, California
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 7:35 pm    
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"Pieces of melodies, all over the place"

b0b, you're a poet !
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Ben Hoare


From:
NSW Australia
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 8:20 pm    
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James Collett wrote:
I am more of a newbie than you are (year and a half) but I find that you only need to play a triad to get the feel you want (now- which three strings to pick depends!)all providing, of course tat you're playing with a group to supply the rest of the chord.

James is correct if your playing in a group and the bass player is playing the 1 or 5 and a guitar might be playing chords you can start to experiment with the more colourful notes 3,6,7,9,11,13 etc.I play chords with more than 3 notes ocassionally but not often by using the thumb pick in the same way you would strum a guitar.I stole this technique from watching Daniel Lanois play even though he doesnt use finger picks you can adapt it if you want but to do this all the strings in the chord need to be beside each other cause Ive found it hard to mute them in one sweep.Ive experimented with using my first finger on the bar hand to do this but Ive got to many other things to learn before mastering that technique.
Ben
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Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 8:24 pm    
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James Collett wrote:
I am more of a newbie than you are (year and a half) but I find that you only need to play a triad to get the feel you want (now- which three strings to pick depends!)all providing, of course tat you're playing with a group to supply the rest of the chord.


I'm trying to get them with only triads but i guess i just aint picking the right three out of four Confused
In particular, Im not getting the sus 4 Josh mentioned, and Larrys maj7.

Pardon me guys, my knowledge of theory is very poor.
actually thats kind of understating it Embarassed
why couldnt they have put those peices of melody all in a nice neat row for me? Wink
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Joshua Grange


From:
Los Angeles, California
Post  Posted 15 Aug 2008 10:18 pm    
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Ben,
First, play a simple major chord in pedal down position, say strings 5-4-3. Now find the 3rd of your major chord in pedals down position.( It will be your 5th string).
Now, play the same chord but don't hit that third. Instead, play the second string with the half lower 2nd string lever for the sus.
Then you can go ahead and play that 5th string. ( or just continue lowering your 2nd string to the whole step lower which gives you the same note as A pedal down.

Hey , try this move: Pedals down, half step lower string 2:
Strings 4-5, then 1-2, then 4-3.
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C Dixon

 

From:
Duluth, GA USA
Post  Posted 16 Aug 2008 6:56 am    
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For years, 3 X 4 was considered "standard". However, when I took a telephone survey some years ago, the overwhelming answer by most builders was: 3 and 5. With the 5th knee lever being a vertical lever between LKL and LKR, that lowered 5 and 10 a half a tone.

Also, they all told me that unless the player requested otherwise, the following was that they shipped:

1. LKL raises 4 and 8 a half tone.

2. LKV lowers 5 and 10 a half tone (above)

3. LKR lowers 4 and 8 a half tone.

4. RKL raises 1 a half tone and lowers 6 a whole tone.

5. RKR lowers 2 a whole tone with a half/stop, and lowers 9 a half tone.

This was proven later, when I visited EVERY PSG booth at the ISGC, and just about EVERY guitar (save U-12's) was set up like the above.

However, this may be changing. When Paul Franklin came out with his knee lever; that raises 1 and 7 a whole tone and raises 2 a half tone; something had to give; IF a player wanted to incorporate these changes. I for one think these changes are awesome.

Some have used a part of them, integrated with the changes on the standard RKL. Some have done away completely with those changes, in lieu of using all of the PF changes, etc.

In addition, more and more players are opting for a 2nd LKL. Some have even installed 2nd RKL's, etc. In addition, more and more players are installing the PF pedal 4 changes. And some have the Jimmy Crawford pedal AND "cluster". Some have the cluster on BOTH E9th and C6th.

Where does it stop? IMO, it won't, UNTIL somehow, every string on BOTH necks can be raised AND lowered to their mechanical limits. Why?

Simply because THAT is what caused the changes in the first place with Bud Isaacs and a single pedal. It's an evolutionary thing. It happens slowly, but it will happen. Mark me words. I may not live to see it, but it will come. It is how music works, as it evolves.

.....and Prais Jesus for it, for it allows the PSG player, to do exactly what piano and guitar players have done from day one, with out limits.

IE, if a piano player or a guitar players wishes to raise or lower a single note; for musical requirements and/or expressions; they simply move one of their fingers. We can't do this. So we found a way to get around it with pedals and knee levers.

Thus, their numbers will not stop increasing, until.......

We are only in the infancy of a total freedom, that permits the PSG to be as flexible as other instruments have been since they were created.

Let 'em come. Ya git used to it! Very Happy Those that can't or refuse, will be overshadowed by those that can and/or will. Garownteeeeeeeeeed Whoa!

Nastia Liukin and Michael Phelps proved that yesterday! And praise Jesus for them.

"Be ye therefore perfect, as the Father in heaven is perfect".

He KNEW we would never make it, but he rewards those that try. Praise His holy name.

carl

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Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 16 Aug 2008 7:11 am    
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Joshua Grange wrote:
Ben,
First, play a simple major chord in pedal down position, say strings 5-4-3. Now find the 3rd of your major chord in pedals down position.( It will be your 5th string).
Now, play the same chord but don't hit that third. Instead, play the second string with the half lower 2nd string lever for the sus.
Then you can go ahead and play that 5th string. ( or just continue lowering your 2nd string to the whole step lower which gives you the same note as A pedal down.

Hey , try this move: Pedals down, half step lower string 2:
Strings 4-5, then 1-2, then 4-3.


Thanks Josh, that really helped me!
Now to try and incorporate this stuff into my playing.

Carl, my guitar is a 3x5 set up as you described, except my right knees are reversed. For a breif while when i first started, I contemplated changing these right knee levers to their more commonly assigned positions, but since I never used em...I never bothered.
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