Fanned scale lap steel, what are your thoughts?

Randy Cordle · From: Illinois, USA

Hi forumites,
I’ve got a request to build a fanned scale lap steel and I’d appreciate any thoughts you would have about the basic concept.
Here is a prototype that the owner did and has played for a few years. He now desires a little nicer build using my lap steel design and split single hum-cancelling pickup. It would also have a dark “fretboard” with inlaid contrasting “frets” and mother of pearl position markers inlaid directly over the fret locations.
This would not be everyone’s cup of tea, but seems that it would be appropriate to rock/blues oriented styles. He does no bar slants and tunes to "Hawaiian A" EAEAG#E.
The owner plays left handed so I flipped the picture so it looks a little more normal. Obviously the string gauges would normally be reversed to have the bass strings on the player’s side,although the opposite configuration (as shown) is how he plays. Current scale is 22-1/2” on the short string to 24-3/4” on the long string. The new instrument would also have a top mount volume knob and side mount output jack.
Thanks,
Randy

_________________
www.Bluestemstrings.com

Jim Konrad · From: The Great Black Swamp USA

I have seen this one before, what is a fanned scale for and why? please

Jim

AJ Azure · From: Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

seems useless for lap steel. the whole fanned fret thing is about fretted playing

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

I can see immediately that it would be very natural and comfortable for your wrists to play in either extreme of the the neck areas.

What I do not like about it is that you could get to dependant on this set up and would not be able to enjoy 99.99% of the other steels in the world.

Keith Wells · From: South Carolina Sea Islands

I see no reason a fanned scale wouldn't work on a steel guitar. Possibly very well.

I hope you build it and give us a full report!

Does anybody here have any experience with a fan-fretted steel? I wouldn't be surprised if Alan Brooks has built a few ...

Thanks for posting this Randy and please keep us informed. I wish you didn't flip the picture though, it's confusing enough to look at already!

Jim, a fanned scale (also referred to as fan-fretted or multi-scale) is simply increasing the scale length on one side of the guitar by angling the nut, bridge and frets. Each string has its own scale, with the lowest-pitched string getting the longest scale.

As for the why, I'll leave that for more knowedgeable people to answer. (that's code for "I don't know".)

I do know that pianos use shorter strings for higher pitches and longer for lower pitches, so there may be some sonic advantage to it.
_________________
-- Keith

David Simenson · From: Merced, California

It seems like it would just make playing slants harder. For instance, a reverse slant near the nut, or a forward slant above the 12th fret would be very difficuly. And I don't see any real advantage to the setup.

Bill Creller · From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)

It sure is different alright. But if the guy wants a new one that's nicer, go for it. If the guy is a lefty, he wont be playing other guitars anyway.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Tom Pettingill · From: California, USA (deceased)

Fanned frets on a steel is an interesting concept, though not practical for 99.99% of the players out there.

The idea behind fanned frets is to have a balanced tone with even string tension, much like how a piano has different length strings for different notes.
On a guitar, advocates say that fanned frets in general have a "richer, purer, more in tune" tone.

If setup correctly with the bass side to the player, it would be a rather uncomfortable instrument to play.
The flipped pic is deceiving and shows the slant on the nut and bridge reversed.
On a fanned fret system, the bass side string scale is longer in relation to the treble strings.

In any event, you should have fun building it, looking forward to seeing it when its done Smile

_________________
Some misc pics of my hand crafted steels
Follow me on Facebook here

John Bushouse · Posted 29 Apr 2008 11:10 am

Randy, what's the guitar in your avatar?

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

how do you determine the precision angle of the fanned frets? seems a little mind boggling to me?

David Simenson · From: Merced, California

I read the original post just fine. I read that the customer never plays slants. I also read that you were asking our opinions. Smile

Mine are:

AJ Azure · From: Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

actually he asked for opinions on this specific build, i.e. any advice. Any other comments (including mine) are irrelevant.

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

I fail to see any reason for the fanned frets. The math involved in placing them accurately must've been horrible!

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Here's something that Alan Brookes built with "Fanned Frets"

Randy Cordle · From: Illinois, USA

Thanks to all for your comments. Keep those cards and letters coming. I find the range of opinions and thoughts on the fanned scale concept a great read.

Bill,
The owner stated that he was immediately comfortable with playing the fanned scale lap. To further complicate the idea, he also wears an accessory “ring slide” on his index finger to note above the slide he’s holding.

Tom,
Fanned frets on a standard guitar are also supposed to be easier to play due to the wrist angle changing as the arm is extended between the extremes of the fretboard. It makes sense that this would also be true of the lap steel. I agree 100% about the 99.99%, though!

John,
My avatar is one of my instruments. This particular one is on my website homepage:
http://www.bluestemstrings.com/

Chris and Stephen,
There’s a web site http://www.fretfind.ekips.org/2d/nonparallel.php that has on on-line calculator for fanned fret positions.
That one is a little over-complex, though. I can do the same thing quickly in CAD by projecting fret ends to a location in space out from the instrument. Repositioning the point changes the slant of all frets, bridge, and nut proportionately.

David and AJ,
I’m interested in opinions and comments of any type. Thanks to everyone for both because it helps me get a feel for what would be required to play such a design. Diversity in the instrument world is good, even if only for a few. There’s a lot of cool stuff out there. That doesn’t mean I’d play it, but interesting nonetheless. (Speaking of which, thanks for the photo Basil.)

Keith,
You would be correct about the sonic advantage to longer scale length for the bass strings. That’s why we have the age-old dilemma of trying to get good tone and sustain from shorter scale instruments. It’s always somewhat of a compromise. The problem I see with the fanned scale is the necessity to place the strings in reverse order to what is considered customary. If I end up doing the build it will be interesting to play it and draw my own opinion. I’d have trouble right out of the box with the left-handed playing that would be required. (Don’t even get me started about handedness in musical instruments. Obviously special left-handed instruments are necessary… that’s why there are no left-handed piano players.)
I thought flipping the photo might help it look a little more normal, but that might not be the case. The flipped pic would be the instrument in a “normal” configuration. Here’s the original so you can get a truer perspective on the design.

_________________
www.Bluestemstrings.com

Mark Roeder · From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA

Looks very ergonomic. I think it could be comfortable to play.

I'm enjoying my 7-string Bluestem, nice steel.
Mark

Daryl Smetana · From: California, USA

Dave Bader · From: Pennsylvania, USA

How would slanting on a fanned fret guitar be any harder? All your doing is finding the where the string intersects the fret same as you would on a standard fretboard.

Mark Roeder · From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA

The angle of the slant for a reverse slant or a forward slant would be more drastic than on a standard setup. Except in the middle of the neck. I believe........that is how it looks to me.
Mark

Stephan Miller · From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA

Glance away from that fretboard for a little too long and you'll be playing slants whether you want to or not!

I do like the idea of a longer scale for the bass strings, though.

John Bushouse · Posted 30 Apr 2008 2:12 pm

Forward slants easier on frets 1-11. Reverse slants easier on frets 13-infinity.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I find the idea a little bit strange.

_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video

AJ Azure · From: Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qYFZNmrSCPI&feature=related

pretty cool

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

I brought this same subject up about three years ago, but searching the index I haven't been able to find it.

Okay, here's the history of fanned frets. During the middle ages a luthier came up with the idea of using longer strings on the bass strings than the treble. The main reason was that strings of thicker gauges were not available, so the only way to get lower notes while keeping the tension playable was to use longer strings. To that end many citterns of various shapes and sizes were built with fanned frets. No lutes were ever built with fanned frets because a lute's frets are tied and you couldn't tie fanned frets and keep them in place. I've been building mediaeval instruments for decades, and the photo that Basil included was of a Bell Cittern that I built about ten years ago.

(This photo was taken before it was strung up, so you can't see the floating bridge.)

During the 60s there was a lot of experimentation going on, and a lot of fanned-fretted flat-backed mandolines were made by a luthier in Berkeley, CA. This led to Ralph Novak specializing in building fanned-fretted solid electric guitars under the name Novax Fanned Frets, and he has been doing a good business in this for many years. Unfortunately he patented the idea and I've had a longrunning dispute with him about patenting an idea which has been around for centuries, but that's another story.

The modern idea of fanned frets on an electric guitar is for comfort of playing. There are jazz guitarists out there who are very enthusiastic about it. I've seen a fanned-fretted classical guitar, but it failed to garnish any support from the classical world. Basically, it compensates for the angle of the arm to the fingerboard, which changes as you move up and down the frets.

The application of fanned frets to a steel guitar would be backwards to that of a regular guitar, because of the playing position. Think of your arm as a windshield wiper. As you slide up the strings you have to alter the angle of the steel in your hands to keep it parallel to the fingerboard despite the fact that the angle of your arm is changing. This is the well-known parallax problem that all steel guitarists are aware of. A fanned fingerboard completely does away with the parallax problem. Unfortunately, experienced players have learned to automatically overcome the parallax problem, and designing the fingerboard as a fan would throw them right out.

Now to the practicalities of building one. The first thing you have to decide is where the straight fret will come. For instance, you could have a straight nut and everything fanned out from there, or you could have a fanned bridge and everything fanned out from the other end. Most luthiers who build fanned fingerboards place the straight fret at about the 12th, and fan out in both directions from there. The next problem to decide is the radius of the arc. Logic says that it should be about the distance from the middle of the left hand to the elbow, but in practice that usually ends up too short. (In case I've lost you, look at the cittern in the photograph: there is a spot where all the frets would converge if drawn out, and that is the centre of the fan.)

Looking at the photos of the instrument that Randy is trying to replicate and improve on, my suggestion is that the radius of the arc is too small, and the frets should be fanned less.

....well that's my ten cents worth Very Happy

Forum Index > Steel Without Pedals	Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic