A Fender 1000's Shortcoming

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Breathing the poisonous fumes while soldering connections is obviously dangerous. The Fender 1000 requires extensive soldering in the joining of cables to attachments. Are there any members here on this forum, who have knowledge of how Leo Fender dealt with the problem? Did the company try different alloys of lead, tin or silver? Thanks.. Smile

Curt Langston · Posted 10 Apr 2008 5:33 am **small shop vac**

I've used a small shop vac with a tapered nozzle before, when soldering output jacks. It was easy to prop into place about 5 inches from the site. It kept the fumes pulled down and away from me. Seemed to work very well.

Working in the medical field as a respiratory therapist, I have seen firsthand the effects of toxic fume damage to the alveoli. Once the alveolar sacs become scarred from smoking, areosol propellants, and the like, gas exchange is greatly diminished. Hence the use of oxygen in people with COPD or emphysema.

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Curt L.,

Thanks for the alert. Zinc is another metal that will cause problems, if the fumes enter the respiratory system. I've heard the term "zinc chills" used around welding shops. Pesticides coating sheet metal surfaces should be avoided, in welding shops. Thanks for your suggestion of how to avoid fumes. I use a fan, and position myself between the flowing air and the fumes. Smile

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Whenever I have to do any soldering, I sit outdoors on the front porch so the fumes can dissipate.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Mike,

That works fine in combination with a fan. Mild weather and proper setups are helpful.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

When these guitars were in production (and amps as well) in the 50's and 60's (even into the 70's) there were NO respiratory protection regulations for things like solder fumes. You didn't have OSHA inspectors dropping by on a regular basis, county fire inspections, etc etc.

I'm safety director (in addition to several other hats) of my company and we have a 25-30 page respiratory protection program, a 3" binder packed with our IIPP, (Injury ans Illness Prevention Program), a "Code of Safe Practices" - 10 pages - that is posted on every project site, Osha Form 300 I have to fill out on a regular basis...

None of this was around in those days. Remember the Mad Hatter? Hat makers became mentally deficient due to mercury fumes. Lead fumes are dangerous, but casual soldering is not. It is always a good idea to have good ventilation and avoid breathing the fumes - certain types of cartridge respirators are also very useful. Check the 3M or Norton sites for respiratory protection for the welding industry - same general rules apply.

The little paper dust masks do absolutely nothing to protect you from soldering or paint fumes, just dust and particulate matter.

Nowadays soldering stations (for hand work) are well ventilated and respirators worn, except for the small boutique shops, where it's hit-or-miss. The automated flow-solder equipment is pretty much self contained and filtered/vented.

When I work on my Fender cables using a propane torch, I often do it outside - not because I'm afraid of the fumes, but more for fire protection. If I do it on the workbench in the garage the garage door is open and usually one or more of several fans is running (I have intake and exhaust fans for when I do finishing work...all done with the water heater pilot off, so I rarely do it at home and use our spray booth at work - if your gas water heater is in the garage, NEVER use solvent based paint/lacquer or use cleaning solvents solvents with the door closed).
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Jim S.,

Thanks for explaining in detail the dangers of jobs that subject unsuspecting workers to harmful dusts and fumes. You really don't need to look far and wide for the common practices that endangers those who would otherwise try to maintain good health. Many educated heads of companies concentrate more on production, than on the subtle and final debilitating respiratory results of long term exposures. Asbestos, insulating materials, lead paints, etc., cause permanent damages throughout the workers lifetime. As a rule of the thumb, corporation heads will walk you into any number of situations, that totally disregard health issues. I realize that most workers have one major goal, and that is, to support a family. Everytime I hear Loretta sing "Coal Miner's Daughter", I think of how cruel a life can be to a willing worker. I would dread going to work in the mines, day after day. This post's title suggests examining the creative minds (including Leo Fender's) that
presumably worked in close proximity with metal fumes, (mainly lead alloys). I don't have a clear picture of how management went about the soldering procedures. Most production heads seem to be very sensitive, and some will go so far as discouraging a worker, who tries to work in a plan of sustaining life and limb. There is one outcry that makes a great of sense; "too little too late", for those who have worked at hazardous work places.

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Thousands of Fender 1000 owners have made thousands of solderimg repairs. Plain and simple! It's a bad omen when the multiples of related experiences are not shared here on the forum. This bit of truth, provides me with valuable insight that would otherwise go unnoticed.

Roger Shackelton · From: MINNESOTA (deceased)

HI BILL,

what about changing these Fenders to a rod operated system? No more cables.
The Blanton pulling system is the ideal way to go. Smile

Roger

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Roger,

The incredible potential of aircraft cable would be defeated. I doubt that rods could ever equal the versatility of cable usages. If you care to expand on comparing characteristics, it could prove to be interesting.

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

I had a fender 1000 and 400.I don't remember ever having any cable problems but i did get into ham radio back in the tube days when you could repair your own gear.I did some soldering and it killed me years ago.We didn't have the gov telling us how every thing was bad for us back then. Smile

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Tracy,

I've purchased and sold a few of the Fender 400's. I considered them to be much less stable with pedal action, than the 1000, mainly due to the lighter construction. When the 1000 was "planted" on stages, it didn't dance or move from where it stood. I'm surmising with a great deal of confidence, that your Fenders didn't get a whole lot of work. I say that, because those cables could free themselves from Fender's little pulleys, and from the small brass tubings, if a poor soldering job was in part, the reason for the slippages. Of course knee levers were the sources of constant wear and tear. Switching tunings will make some differences, that perhaps would be advantageous for certain applications. The D9th tuning was by far the one with fewer related problems.

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

Well Bill you surmised wrong.back in those days i was playing for a living which is the work i retired from.Some players did have problems because they had a heavy foot.( This was before stomp boxes lol.) ANd knee levers had yet to come out on steels. Smile

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Tracy,

I have just a friendly question to ask of you. Do you recall the small pulleys that were used by Fender for double raises or double lowers? Or a raise and a lower? Then the springs that controlled the lowers were not the best. They required measures to reduce the resistance of spring pulls. Do you have a good recall of something that made playing certain melodies difficult? I would like to focus more on the cables and how repairs were made in future posts. Smile

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

Hi Bill.I had the fender steels in the late 50s and early 60s.They were a single raise and lower.A friend of mine who was a friend of Curley Chalker showed me how to take the changers out of my 1000 and file in between the raise and lowers that rubbed together on top at the back of the strings.BTW.Curley had showed him how to do that.It made the pedals work much eaiser.I was always more intrested in the C6th than the 9th tuning.He even showed me how CC did some of those big chords,and phrasing the double stop chords and i never broke a cable.I don't really know how to explain it.Sorry i can'[t do better.
BTW.You have to remember there was only the Fender,Bigsby commercial pedal steels at the time.Don't remember when Sho Bud came out but they were crude also as the rods were welded to the bell cranks at the time as i recall.Remember,steels have came a loooong way since then.
Thats the reason i say a Carter starter is probably better than any thing made at the time and I have never owned or played a C starter but have looked at them when i was over at Carters.I have known Bud and Maurice Anderson for 35 years or so.but that doesn't make me an expert on steels by any means.Tracy Hope i caught all my typos.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

If there can be such a thing as a heavy handed approach with ones foot, then "I think" that's what caused the problems with fender 1000 components. I have never had a soldered joint on the cables become detached, or for that matter any other mechanical problems other than backing off an adjustment screw too far and having it come out of the brass tube..see this for the same problem..
As for the amount of work my guitar did, well from 1966 to 68 I played six night a week from 8:30pm to 2:00 am. see this

And it's still being used on a regular basis, with no problems. At a guesstimate approx 4,000-5,000 hours of use to date. (No it got to be MUCH more)
(Guesstimate actually got past the spell check as correct - I never knew!)
As I meander hither and thither gathering erstwhile flotsam and jetsam and dispensing such (Along with the odd platitude) I find it quite amazing what one discovers quite by accident.
Up until now the most popular "Compound" word in my very limited vocabulary has been Illegiterate !

Born of Illiterate and illegitimate.. being Ignorant B****rd (Never had the chance to utilize it (Yet)..

The picture above, circa 1966, the one in my 'avatar' circa 2005

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I play both long and short-scale 400's and a long scale 1000, and in 3 or 4 years I've had ONE cable solder joint fail - and it was a homemade cable (not one of mine). I've never had a stock one fail, and never had the guitars feel unstable or slide around. How would a guitar slide with downwards pressure on a pedal? (Mine don't slide even with added knee levers).

You can adjust tension of lowers quite a bit by changing springs, and a combination of springs and string gage choices can make the guitar very "modern" feeling. It doesn't take much work, that's for sure - you can change a complete copedent in 20 minutes if you're not changing all the strings.

All mine have a very positive feel. I've heard complaints about mushy-feeling guitars, but mine are nearly as crisp and smooth as my GFI.

It's also not tough to overcome the single raise/lower limitation, and they have zero cabinet drop.

The only "limit" to me is players trying 800's or 2000's in E9 - the pickups, body wood and frame along with volume/tone circuit combine to a far more gutsy, "guitar-like" sound than most steels, and they seem to be better-suited for lower voicings (one reason Sneaky Pete was so successful with his 400 - he played that midrange zone and big, round tone to the hilt, especially in the 70's.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Basilh,

Try as I may, it's difficult to respond to combinations of great thoughts produced via The Steel Guitar Forum. I'll attempt to briefly respond to questions, provided I feel that statements do nothing to discredit credible concepts. Tracy in Texas, has written extensively on breakages. I
have mixed feelings about the term "cables breaking". In actuality, on a steady pull, or a Tug-of-war, it would take many strong men to "break" a small cable. It is one of the most durable and useful components in modern mechanical designs. I had stressed in the beginning of exchanges that the solderings were not 100% reliable, and were subject to separations of parts thereof. Perhaps rush orders may have contributed to some of the questionable soldering. No doubt, at the time, every indication of a rigid conformity to workmanship was observed by companion workers. It was a classic case of oversight. Mechanical engineers are to be respected, but not to the point of thinking that they are infallible. Thinking back on past calamities, should tend to support such notions. The most intrepid of repair personnel, who shy away from very little,(including poisonous metallic fumes), may find this thread to be irrelevant in the affairs of the workplace. For those who do, I can only say, proceed as you were. Basil, I appreciate your generous sharing of pictures and accounts of past experiences. Those long hours of playing exceed the requirements of bands that I've known. It's very impressive, and informative in terms of playing a steel guitar for a living. Smile

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Jim S.,

Thanks for pointing out that you've never experienced the "Dancing steel" problem. Granted, aligning oneself in close proximities or juxtapositions relative to sharing "staging" floor space with band members, diverts attention spans to broader interests. Presumably little thought is concentrated on "insignificant" or frivolous matters, such as level surfaces that prevent the steel from hobbling away a fraction of an inch during each set. The Fender 400 never felt the same as the sturdier 1000. Every serious steel player requires a solid level platform to place the steel upon. I was invited to an outdoors gathering that turned out to be mostly bluegrass musicians. My steel was sinking into the lawn on a slight bias, when they broke into the "Orange Blossom Special". I was encumbered to the "max", by the pedals bottoming out on the loamy lawn. They played some country standards, and those attending the party were congenial and seemed to enjoy the music. Bandleaders usually cast a wary eye on how comfortably positioned the steel guitar player has placed his steel. For that reason, longer durations of band participation, assures better performances on the part of the steel guitarist. Knowing what to expect, helps to remove some of the problems, in maintaining enjoyable experiences, while working with fellow musicians. It's just too bad that the durability of the players, doesn't equal that of the instruments.

Curt Langston · Posted 12 Apr 2008 6:27 am

Well, I have been known to bring a two pieces of plywood to outdoor sessions. One to accommadate my guitar (3'x4'), and a smaller one for the seat.(2'x2')

A little extra effort, but well worth it.

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Curt L.,

As any good respiratory therapist would advise the "couch potato" to get out there in the fresh air, and do some walking. Get to puffing a bit if all systems are go. I feel the same about my steel guitar. It can't "puff", but it's built to stand up to hard playing over long periods of time. Thanks for the alliances in plywood and breathing excursions.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

What Curt said - I know drummers who do the same thing, and I *never* play on grass - my amp has to be on a chair or stand (I carry an amp stand usually) and I will not have a chair (for steel) or stand on grass for safety reasons; too much chance of turning yourself into a ground path is something in the power source is screwy (and it seems at almost all "on the grass" jobs the power source is suspect or wired incorrectly, at least in my experience.

Tracy - Fender and Bigsby were NOT the only commercial pedal steel companies in the 50's (and Bigsby's output would hardly be considered "commercial" Bobbe Seymour would know more about it, but I'll hazard a guess that maybe 2 or 3 dozen Bigsbys were produced, if THAT many). The Harlin Brothers' Multi Kord predates Fender's pedal steels by about a decade, as does Gibson with their EH line. Carvin was in the game fairly early, as were a few others now long gone.

I've played several Carter Starters and while because of their setup they are a better choice for someone interested in traditional pedal steel, every Fender cable model is far sturdier and IMO is a far better "musical instrument" than the Starter. Take a simple issue like cabinet drop - the Carter is a twistoflex watchband of a steel (again, just my opinion) and shifts all over the place, making your intonation..."creative" would be a polite phrase. the Fenders have ZERO cabinet drop.

I'm not knocking the Starter - it's good for its intended purpose, which is to introduce players to "normal" pedal steel. But the Fender from the start were intended to be professional instruments, and have served that purpose well for decades; interestingly, they are one of very few "chord changer" - designed steels (where the pedals were not used for moving notes, but changing tunings; read Fender's 400 and 1000 manuals and the whole intent was multiple tunings - essentially, using pedal combinations, 12-80-something different "lapsteel" tunings, depending on the number of pedals) that can be played like a modern steel in bone-stock condition. Some of the mods I've done, Basil's done, Gerald Pierce, Paul Redmond, Russ Tkac and others are designed to improve the response and precision, plus make them more versatile (i.e. the use of barrel tuners on cables to facilitate double-raises or lowers).

I'm still a bit baffled by Bill's comment that they slide when played. First, in stock configuration there's no sideways, forward or backward pressure, just down on the pedals; second, a combination of rubber feet (usually replaced on older guitars as the material becomes hard) and the mass of the guitar help prevent any movement even if you *push* it for some unknown reason. Bill, can you explain how/why you had a sliding problem?

PS - IMO the only downside is the lack of replacement parts, especially the small pulleys on the cables.Both Baz and I have been working on designs and a way to produce those parts and/or whole cable assemblies. The things I'm still trying to find are those pulleys and smaller-diameter turnbuckles than the replacements currently located at hardware stores. Also, something similar to a Shobud barrel tuner that a 1/16" cable can run through and be held in place, with a variable-length part; there are only a few floating around and they are quite expensive. I'm sure there's something "stock" out there that would work.

FWIW pics below of a barrel tuner and pulleys/turnbuckles showing relative size(pulleys are appx 3/4" in diameter; turnbuckles 3/16"):

_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Jim S.,

To describe my homemade steel (70's Sho-Bud single 10 configurations) may shed some light on the incessant drooping of the arms of models that feature no armrests. The forearm is a natural stabilizer by maintaining a downward pressure, that in turn prevents the steel from developing a slight distortion at the pedal rack, that is enough to block a creeping effect. The boot creates a slight outward push, due to the angle of force exerted. The player's legs are not resting at right angles, but rather at an angle associated with a forward push. I could take a Fender 400 and load it with knee lever changes, and remove the fretboard, and tame the lowers, but the missing 2 strings makes the temptatation less desirable. I have a stabilizer rod attached to both pedal rack legs to greatly diminish the unnoticed movement at the pedal rack. The 400 in its current state offers very little when tuned to a 9th tuning. It would be an absolute must to raise and lower the root note of the 9th tuning as well as the octave matching note.

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

Jim.I know about the multi kord being out first.I was playing a stringmaster and bought a multi chord to see what the pedals did.Also bought a gibson electrharp.Don't think either one was very popular with pro steelers.
I posted about this before but will again as it was so funny.
I was playing in Lubbock,Tx.in a large Tx,dance hall and had the multi chord setting behind my string master next to me.When the band would do a simple 3 chord song which was rare i would chord along on the multi chord.
Ray Price and Ernest Tubb were in town and Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day came in with Ray Price after their show.I aslo doubled on fiddle with the fiddle player to twin.
Any hoo,Buddy and Jimmy both set in on the multi kord.It was a 6 string.They argued in fun who was going to play it first as they had never seen one as i recall.They both cooked on it and i played fiddle.Was some fun times back in those days.
BTW.Bobbe Seymour and i knew each other back then but really don't recall much about it.Bobbe took Tom Morells place or visa versa at the N.M.stae line.Tom was playing a Fender 1000 at the time.The Tx.and N.M. pickers were a close bunch.
Odessa, Midland, and Amarillo Tx all had several set down bands back then,also Albuquerque,N.M.which most of us also played on a circuit.Wish Bobbe would write a book about those days but it would have to be under ficton as not many would believe the wild and great times we had and looking for a chance to pull some joke on another picker.Tracy
BtW.As i remember it most steelers played Fender 1000s,or Bigsbys or non pedal fenders.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

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