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Post new topic Jim Sliff's GFI S-10 B6 Reverse Universal
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Author Topic:  Jim Sliff's GFI S-10 B6 Reverse Universal
Paul Redmond

 

From:
Illinois, USA
Post  Posted 13 Apr 2008 12:22 am    
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b0b - You mentioned that the tuning isn't 'universal' as such. It is and isn't. What it does allow is the player to get the 9th country licks and the 6th jazz/blues stuff without doing a thing. It's all there to begin with and the tuning 'hovers' over both modes without dedicating itself either way to one or the other. ebb came up with this 10-string setup and I added one change to it later. I regret that I don't presently have the time to pursue this further at this point. I have set up three 400's for ebb over the last two years and played them a bit before shipping them back to him. I am a believer!!! The major obstacle I encountered in all of this was merely the grips. If you temporarily put the familiar E9th grips out of mind and go from there, this tuning has phenomenal capabilities. As for the chromatics, Billy Bowman rarely used them and never used them on his 6th neck. Ralph Mooney never had chromatics and just look at the stuff he has done over the years. I rarely use the first two strings of my so-called 'standard' E9th to this day as I have found other ways of getting there without them. I'm glad the so-called standard tunings are not nor ever will be etched in stone. It's refreshing to see others think outside the envelope and branch out in various directions. Some E9th players would rather slash their wrists than surrender their first two strings. There is so much more to these tunings than those first two strings.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 13 Apr 2008 8:49 am    
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Well, here's my take on it. The "Universal" concept is a very successful strategy for emulating E9th and C6th in a single tuning. The question becomes, "what are the defining features of those 2 tunings?"

To my ears, the defining feature of the E9th is the timbre of high strings. If not for that, we could all get most of the E9th sounds from a C6th tuning.

To my ears, the defining feature of the C6th is the inclusion of low root notes in jazz chords. If not for those notes, we could all get most of the C6th sounds from an E9th tuning.

Sneaky Pete's B6th combines the features of E9th and B6th that fit within its range. It does not include the sounds that are unique to E9th or C6th. That's where it differs from a "Universal" tuning. A Universal includes the features that are unique to each of the standard D-10 tunings, where the B6th contains only the features that are common to the two tunings.

That's how I see it, anyway. I'm not saying that it's not a good tuning - I think it's great. I'm just saying that it's not a "Universal", in the way that I think of Universal tunings.
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Russ Tkac


Post  Posted 13 Apr 2008 9:06 am    
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>>I think it's great. I'm just saying that it's not a "Universal", in the way that I think of Universal tunings.<<

That is the problem. Most traditional steelers see it in the combination of the two tunings or from a D-10 to a S12U. I see it from the perspective of what can be played. Can you play a universal variety of music from this one tuning or do you need many necks and tunings to do it? Sneaky did just that. At times his tuning sounded very country and other times very much swing but it all came down to the player.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 13 Apr 2008 9:59 am    
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You can play a "universal variety of music" on C6th or E9th, too. That's not what the phrase "Universal tuning" means in the steel guitar lexicon. I just don't want to dilute our terminology, that's all. Otherwise, I could call either of my 12 string necks a universal, because both of them can be used for any style of music.
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Al Marcus


From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
Post  Posted 13 Apr 2008 11:13 am    
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b0b-I agree with your not wanting to diluting our terminolgy for a Real universal tuning. Sounds good to me...al.SmileSmile
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Russ Tkac


Post  Posted 13 Apr 2008 11:43 am    
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I understand.

As I said: "Most traditional steelers see it in the combination of the two tunings or from a D-10 to a S12U."

Again, It seems silly to view music as an instrument as opposed to what comes out of it but that seems to be the steel guitar community. The E9/C6 two neck concept is so stuck in our heads that when we look at one neck we can't see beyond it. I guess it's the way it will be. I messed with an S12 "Universal" for about 6 months and while I got the concept it still felt like two tunings instead of one. Not so universal to me and maybe a reason it still has not generated universal appeal.
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Jim Sliff


From:
Lawndale California, USA
Post  Posted 13 Apr 2008 8:58 pm    
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Quote:
terminolgy for a Real universal tuning


Except what *is* the so-called "Real" (with a capital "R") universal tuning? b0b described it in *concept* - but I've seen enough variations to make my head spin. As with anything in steel, there is no set standard.

If you guys are concernced us po' Fendah' folk is desecratin' the steel by talking impoper talk, we's just not educadud euff I figger.

I'll keep calling it a "reverse universal", or "early universal" (since it was created WAY before the so-called universal copedents used today - maybe THEY are the ones intruding on sacred ground - maybe I'l just call those "hi-lo" copedents or something that better describes them...Razz).

The fact is, the 8 string (or 10-string twist on it) B6 combines elements of both E9 and C6 on one neck, and did it long before the "universal" as played today. If you want to split hairs and say it's not "high" enough and "low" enough to qualify, have at it. It's not going to change what it does...and it's not going to change what some of us who play it call it.

It's a great copedent - but we're CALLING it the wrong thing? SO WHAT? Who calls THOSE shots?

These semantics games are silly IMO. It's not "diluting" squat.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2008 7:02 am    
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Okay, then I play two universal tunings on my D-12, because both of them have the capabilities of your B6th. Do you agree?

Words matter.
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Brint Hannay

 

From:
Maryland, USA
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2008 7:36 am    
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Maybe this mini-dispute could be solved by distinguishing between "the Universal tuning" with a capital U, which I think has come to be generally used for the type of tuning b0b speaks of ("The Universal" does indeed have many variants, but so does E9th, yet the name still has meaning), and "a universal tuning" with lowercase u.

Kind of like distinguishing between "Democratic" and "democratic". (I am NOT trying to sneak in anything about politics!!! Just talking semantics.)
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Al Marcus


From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2008 9:40 am    
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Jim-I can see your valid point.

Brint-You may be onto something. Maybe with a Capital U, it could be classified as "The Universal Tuning" that we know as The E9/B6 standard setup , say maybe the Jeff Newman setup.

I call my S12 tuning E9/E6,"The Real Universal" But that is only for me. As I can play most E9 stuff and E6 stuff on the same neck with no holding in a knee lever for E6.

BE and Reece has experimented with many variations of the S12 universal type tuning....al.SmileSmile
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Russ Tkac


Post  Posted 14 Apr 2008 12:21 pm    
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b0b,

Not sure if your answer was to me or Jim? I do understand "Universal" as it relates to Steel guitar and that term is fine with me. I think Jim's steel and the term "reverse uni" is that it goes from B6 to E with pedals pressed as opposed to E9 to B6 with the knee.

I'll stop my participation here as to not muddy the water anymore then I already have. I think your guitar is really called a "Double Universal" Very Happy

I'll be needing strings soon. Smile

Your pal,
Russ
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Fred Shannon


From:
Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2008 1:04 pm    
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Well words certainly mean a lot but the word "standard" is gonna' be hard to nail down when referencing a steel guitar tuning. There's gonna be "standard" every time a tuning is set up on the things.

Let's take the B6 for example; I'm almost certain Reece Anderson and Julian Tharpe (who I was studying under at the time) both were playing that tuning in the early 60's. Julian also branched the tuning out into either an F or F# sometime in that time frame, but Julian had so many pedals and knees his primary chord was about the only thing discernible.

I know Reece went with the Bb Universal about the same time, maybe around 1964 or 65. Before that he was with Wills and was playing twin steels with Gene Crownover. Both were playing Fender 1000's because Wills had the deal with Leo Fender.

After Reece went on his own, he was playing private clubs, and the major country clubs in the Dallas Fort Worth areas and was beginning to build guitars. I believe he told me he went to the Bb6 tuning because he was more into jazz, pop, and blues which included horns. I don't believe I've ever heard him refer to the 12 string Bb6 tuning he uses now as anything but "Universal".

My friend Gene Jones played a B6 tuning instead of C6 even back in the 50's I believe. But I'm not sure he ever referred to it as "Universal".

Sonny Curtis, who spent over 20 years with George Jones and Tammy Wynette, had a tuning that he referred to as "Inverted" and I believe this word probably fits Sneaky and Sliff's tunings best, but I'm not advocating it be named that. Here's a quote from the super steeler Sonny Curtis after he received his first pedal steel:

"I didn't have anyone to help me so I set up the guitar and put the tuning on it that later turned out to be inverted to the way everyone else plays. Roger Blevins who then played for Dusty Owens on the Wheeling Jamboree, was the first person to tell me I was playing backwards."

Perhaps for semantics sake, huh?

There is a thread here on the b0b's Forum that explains some of the E9 tuning origination better than any I've found. You might enjoy bringing it up and reading it just for general information. Here 'tis:

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/002738.html

Hope this didn't lead to any more confusion.

Phred
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Al Marcus


From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2008 7:00 pm    
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Phred-Your post is a pretty good history over the years of the Universal. Good to see your post...al.SmileSmile
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Paul Redmond

 

From:
Illinois, USA
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2008 7:03 pm    
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Didn't the late Ernie Hagar use an inverted A6th tuning which reverted to E9th when the splits were pushed? It's an interesting concept.
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Al Marcus


From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2008 7:26 pm    
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Paul-Yes, Many players used A6th and inverted to E9 with the two pedals. I once tuned to A6 and got my A to G# on left knee for the Maj7 same as C to B on C6th.and C# to B on right knee. Reece had those 2 pulls on his Knees too on his Bb6maj7 tuning., But I didnt play any E9 in 1950. I started playing E9 around 1969...so many ways to play. That is what is great about the Steel, so many individual tunings....al.SmileSmile.
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Jim Sliff


From:
Lawndale California, USA
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2008 8:37 pm    
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Quote:
I think Jim's steel and the term "reverse uni" is that it goes from B6 to E with pedals pressed as opposed to E9 to B6 with the knee.


It seems that far too often steelers get tied up in the details...can't see the forest 'cause the damned trees are in the way.

Russ's explanation is how I've referred to it in the past. That's all it is. You guys are getting bogged down in stuff that doesn't mean a darned thing - what matters is how it sounds and what you can do with it.

In "concept" it could be considered an early "universal" (in the generic sense) due to the combination of E9 and C6-type changes on one neck.

That's ALL there is to it.

Some of you guys take this stuff WAY too seriously sometimes. A valid generic description will "water down" the steel guitar world?

Oh, Heavens! Circle the wagons!

Just kidding b0b - but it does seem silly to me.

Someone said way before I started using the term that Sneaky's copedent was essentially an early universal-type copedent, and I honestly don't remember if it was me or someone else that coined "reverse universal - but based on what Russ posted (and what I've said before) it certainly seems to make sense.

Untie your Jockey Shorts, guys - the world's not gonna end because a few guys call their tuning an early or reverse universal.

You'll live.
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1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2008 8:49 pm    
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I don't think there is a single copedent that can be called 'The Universal', as there are several variants that qualify. Consider Joe Murray's B6th Universal, for example. It combines the features of the E9th and C6th.

Some people are confusing copedents with styles of music. I believe that you can basically play any style of music on any copedent because, as has been proven many times, you can play any style of music without pedals. The fact that you can play country and jazz on a copedent doesn't make it a "Universal" in my mind. I've been playing western swing, Hawaiian and even a few jazz tunes on extended E9th for 30 years, but I still don't consider it to be a "Universal" copedent. It lacks some of the unique voicings of the C6th, as well as the bottom string.

I take the same view of Sneaky Pete's B6th. While it has pieces of E9th and C6th, it is impossible to fully emulate either tuning with it. That may be a good thing, musically. It certainly served its creator well, and like any good copedent it has nearly infinite musical possibilities.

The meaning of "Universal" is very specific when applied to steel guitar copedents. It refers to a single copedent that successfully emulates the two most popular standards: E9th and C6th. I view the development of Universal copedents as a triumph of mechanical engineering. It pushed the envelope in the 60's and 70's, generating the versatile changer mechanisms that we take for granted today.

Words matter.
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Jim Sliff


From:
Lawndale California, USA
Post  Posted 14 Apr 2008 10:39 pm    
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b0b, it's generally been qualified by the use of terms "early" or "reverse"...meaning it's different. And they seem to be (among Fender jockeys) acceptable terms On the 10-string version, the "reverse" term has made perfect sense to many because it's E9 "mechanics" with a 6th tuning.


Quote:
The meaning of "Universal" is very specific when applied to steel guitar copedents. It refers to a single copedent that successfully emulates the two most popular standards: E9th and C6th.


I looked up the term "universal pedal steel" on Google and got a whole assortment of refences - and not much consistency. Copedents listed in the links varied from 10 string to 14 string, with all sorts of pedal and knee combinations.

That's not very "specific".

But "successfully emulates the two most popular standards" defines the B^ we''re talking about. The fact it doesn't cover the whole *range* of both tunings notwithstanding, it still combines both those general ideas.

I still fail to see what the big deal is - it's like there's a *specific* universal copedent and calling any variation "universal" is heresy.

Is an E9 copedent something with 10 strings, 3 pedals and 4 knee levers? What happens when you add strings....or pedals...or levers? The "very specific" E9 definition as popularly taught goes down the drain. If the "rules" concerning words are so tight, you can't have an E9 copedent on an 8 string (because it would be lacking things, like B6 is lacking things from someone's self-etched-in-stone definition of "universal) or on an 11 string (it goes too far...same with extra pedals.

A long explanation to say - don't worry bout it. We'll call it what we want. If you think it dilutes terminoloy than also implement all the other examples and please find other names for them (using words like "early" or "reverse"), because it's confusing when someone says "I play E9" - well, is that Emmons, Day, is a Franklin pedal on it, a vert knee, a Crawford Cluster, extra strings...

If words matter THAT much there are a LOT of other definitions required.
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
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