P/P Raise-Assist Springs... MADE EASY

Duane Reese · Posted 6 Mar 2008 2:16 pm

Anyone who has ever played a push/pull knows that the pedals are inherently stiffer than most all-pull guitars, especially when you get more than two strings on the shaft. It's been something that has been worth dealing with I guess, but now you don't have to. In this thread, I hope to show anyone interested how to add raise-assist springs to the guitar. As long as you have enough know-how to work on and set up p/p guitars, you'll find this mod to be easy, fairly inexpensive, and completely reversible - one can set the guitar back to stock without alteration. Hopefully my trial and error with this will make it easier for others to get from point A to point B.

As stated in an earlier thread, this idea is basically the same concept that Richard Burton came up with, but is different by virtue of being compartmentalized within the changer area. The theory is simple: while one end of the spring is attached to the finger, the other is attached to the push rod (if there is one for that string) preventing the spring from being stretched upon lowering and causing the inner and outer fingers to separate. As long as you make sure your raise-assist spring isn't too strong, everything will meet all necessary stops for tuning and the pedals will be much less stiff - almost like pulling one string instead of two.

What you need from the hardware store (I suggest Lowe's):

8-32 x 1/2 socket head cap screws, one for each string that both raises and lowers

1/4" x 3-1/4" x .025" extension springs, one for each raising string (metric: 6.35mm x 82.55mm x 0.63mm)

19 gauge picture-hanging wire (this wire is smaller gauge than the stock pull wire, but it's easier to bend in tight spots and works fine in my judgment)

In this photo, the long spring is how they look out of the package, and the top is one that's been cut in half; I find that some fingers need more tension than what the stock springs can do, and so a shorter spring and some spacer connecting wire fills the bill. Next, the wire hook in the middle is a stock one, the one one the bottom hooks the spring into the top (closest to changer axle) finger hole on fingers where the pulling hook is in a lower hole, and the top hook is a combination hook, for fingers where you have to pull from the top hole. The tape measure give you an idea of about how long these hooks have to be.

Now here's a photo of what you'll have going on over at the push rod plate...

As you can see, the set screws (grub screws) have been replaced by those hex cap screws in the retaining collars, which is where you attach the springs. This may look like a potential hazard for the tops of those things getting caught on one another, but I have found that the spring tension and weight of the screws (remember these will be hanging upside-down) keeps them from leaning over too much, and the fact that the push rod action doesn't move very far doesn't allow them to get hung up on one another. they may brush against each other a little, but that's about it (I suppose if one was really worried about it, they could throw spacer tubes in there on one or two). Notice also that one of them has a wire hooking the spring to the screw. This is one of those short springs, and the wire has been bent to the right length to make the tension of that spring not too tight, not too loose.

I've found that it's easiest to attach the springs to the cap screws first, with those collars loosened, and then attach the other end of the spring to one of the hooks going through the finger hole, then draw the spring tight as you move the collar to the push rod plate, then tighten the cap screw.

Now here's a couple of other things to show you...

This is a picture of what you might as well do where you have a string that raises but doesn't lower. Pretty self-explanatory, but remember to make the hooking piece of wire long enough so you can easily change it's shape (effective length), which is how you adjust it.

The key with these things is not to make the finger so easy to move that friction alone causes the finger not to go back all the way, even when it seems like it's not that extreme. It's also essential that you test the range of finger motion for such problems after you install it. Basically, you can lighten things up real good without getting so aggressive that you make the thing faulty - just find a happy medium. Remember also that the benefit adds up (or subtracts to be precise) the more pulls you have per pedal.

Here's what it looks like when you have a combination hook, with the pull hook going in that same top hole. This part of the installation is probably the most difficult, but it's not terrible. What you do is you bend the hook at the narrow middle part (a slight twist of that little section) so that the section of the hook that shoots out the front (and hooks on to the spring) is level with the deck of the guitar, and the section that hooks to the pull rod goes up to meet it at the appropriate angle - it's about 20ï¿½. Anyway, getting that through the hole in the finger is tricky because it's longer than a stock wire hook, but once it's through, then you use needle nose pliers to make yourself a hooked end to attach the spring.

Here's a couple of pictures of what this stuff looks like when you are done. Note that I have all but three pull rods disconnected and out of the way, making it easier to see (and I had some shaft work at the other end to do anyway so there you have it).

Another thing to note is that when the push rod moves back, the spring does stretch a tiny bit because it's further out from the changer axle than the push rod. This is so small it doesn't pose a problem as long as you don't have that spring too tight. Again, don't try to make these things so light that you can sneeze on the pedals to push them down, as you'll just make the motion faulty.

It's possible that a reduction in the force needed to pull the fingers might also lower cabinet stress and therefore reduce cabinet drop, but I didn't measure the before and after difference with the tuner so I won't make that claim. If anyone who installs this mod would do that comparison and let us all know, that'd be helpful. I did notice that it had to be retuned after this a little, even after the positive stops have all been checked and verified - not sure why this is, but again, the guitar stays in just fine from my observation. Another change one might want to make is to install lighter compression springs at the collars, since there's less force required - it just makes it a nicer balance.

Anyway, thanks for looking and let me know if you all have questions, concerns or clarifications needed on anything.

Duane Reese · Posted 6 Mar 2008 4:04 pm

Buddy Castleberry wrote me and suggested that another collar be used with the cap screw to make adjustment easier. Seems like a good idea, although the longer that spring is, the better it works. The string up on the other side is also like a big spring, but it's length makes the tension curve a lot more flat than the spring. the longer the spring, the flatter it's curve, and the more consistent the assist action.

But that is a good idea, having a separate collar between the two on the push rod, where you have the cap screw holding the spring.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Very interesting Duane.And thanks for sharing.THe only problem I see. Is the same problem that you have when trying to use raise assist springs on an all pull changer.THey work ok unless you're lowering strings a whole tone or more.Example. E9 2,5,6, and 10 lowered a whole tone. Have you tried your idea with whole lowers other than string 6?

Also, please don't get the wrong idea. I,m not trying to shoot you down.And I realize most PP players do not lower 5 and 10 a whole tone. Keep up the good work. Smile

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Please don't take this the wrong way, simply because I'm the type of person who have always liked things to be precise. Both in mechanical structure as well as in appearance. Matter of fact, that's what's prevented me from ever buying another new steel. Simply because I've seen them brand new with bent over wires to pull the fingers, etc. In my judgement, that just wouldn't cut it for me.

"But again, that is only my personal opinion, and is meant in no way at all to reflect on any of the work done to this particular steel. It just wouldn't work for me."

Now, I'll be the first to tell anyone, that I know nothing at all about these types of push/pulls, nor do I the All Pull systems. But it's always been on those types where I've seen operating changers that at times have given me cold chills.

A question that I again know nothing at all about, so I'm asking.. On the foremost bottom picture, where it shows the final job and the wire going in between what (to me) appears to be between two fingers. (from left to right, the #5 finger) Wouldn't that cause that finger to possibly bind or at least rub on that wire?

Just wondering if that would (or could) be a problem down the road? Also, wouldn't it be a sign that something isn't returning correctly or at least as solid as it did previous to the new changes, since you had to fine tune it differently after that work was done? Fingers possibly binding on the wires placed between them and the changer mech? But again, these are only questions that I'm feeling may take place after viewing the pics.

Don

Duane Reese · Posted 7 Mar 2008 9:15 am

Thanks for the responses guys.

Bobby, I don't have any strings on my E9th that lower a wholetone, but I do have the #10 string on my C6th that lowers a tone and a half, in the usual fashion, and I have a helper spring there and that works. I don't see that it should be much of a problem lowering a string on E9th a wholetone because the helper spring doesn't really stretch per say when you lower, which is why you hook it to the rod via the cap screw. If you just hooked it to something stationary (third picture down) and then tried to lower the string, I doubt you could even lower it a halfstep before the fingers separated.

Don, the wire that goes down between adjacent fingers the way it does is the same path stock wire hooks take when entering the changer. There's a little gap between fingers that allows for this. If your wire was all mashed up there may be some chafing, but mine aren't. As far as the tuning goes, I can assure you that nothing is hanging up anywhere. The p/p guitar tunes by positive stops in the changer, and it's reaching all of these just fine, so it's not an issue of getting hung up. For some reason, the point of being in tune (by my observation on my guitar anyway) wound up being at very slightly different points on those positive stops. I have no idea why, and perhaps I was imagining the whole things somehow, but I have these springs in my guitar and I can tune it just fine by standard p/p tuning protocol, and it stays in fine too - I've done quite a few gigs with it like this too and it never hiccuped.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Duane...........this is great stuff! I agree that hooking the distal end (that closest to the keyhead) of the spring on the Push rod collar should make should interference with lowering a non-issue.

My question is: Could you connect the proximal end (the end closer to the changer) of a shorter spring to the stock piano-wire Emmons clip, where it joins the pull rod for a similar effect?. That might ease installation and reduce any binding tendency within the changer itself from having 2 wires/pull.

Just a thought...............BTW, You did a killer job on the guitar as well as on the photo spread.Thanks.

Billy Knowles · From: Kenansville, N. C. 28349 usa

Duane
I was thinking of adding helpers springs to my ZBs. Just wonderng, it looks as if the springs on 3 and 6 are shorter than the others?
This is a great idea.
Thanks
BIlly

Duane Reese · Posted 7 Mar 2008 12:35 pm

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Duane Reese · Posted 7 Mar 2008 5:15 pm

Oh, I see what you are saying now.

Well, I'm picturing how this would be, and if you had it hooked to a wire or rod that was going into a far-out (from axle) hole in the finger, it would be going up at quite an angle; it'd especially have a tendency to pull the wire and rod downward there, but it'd still do that a little if it were in a bottom hole.

I chose to attach the spring as close as possible to the axle as I could because it would be a nice direct pull, it'd be more out of the way, and it's tension curve would be more flat as far as the string is concerned. I had originally though about drilling a hole right in the face of the finger and putting a tiny little eye bolt in there to hook the spring on, but I decided since there's a hole there anyway... The need for the combination wire hook was because two wire hooks can't fit in the same hole.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Yeah.......I think you're way is probably better and I can't wait to try it.

My p/p is now set-up with many of the raise hooks in the hole farthest from the axle. I'm accepting a longer pedal throw for decreased pedal effort and I've been OK with that trade-off so far.....but now I'm hoping that I can take advantage of the spring assist to lower pedal travel by using changer finger holes closer to the axle.

richard burton · From: Britain

I've got a slightly different method, which is not as neat as Duane's, but does allow me to use longer springs.
However, I think Duane's method is excellent, definately a step up from mine Very Happy

In this photo, you can just see the push rod with the helper spring, right by the endplate. It has a collar on it to retain the spring.
There are more of my photos/ideas
here

Duane Reese · Posted 7 Mar 2008 11:39 pm

Thank you much for the props, Richard. Of course, we'll never forget where the idea originally came from - that drawing there above is exactly what inspired me.

Oh one other handy tip to mention: when making the combination wire hooks, the stock ones that you take out serve well for the regular spring-to-finger hooks for the fingers that get pulled from other holes - it saves the time to have to bend another hook, and makes for some sensible parts storage.

Another thing that makes putting hooks in the fingers a lot easier, whether regular or combination... Well, first of all, I've found the best way to work on the steel for this project (and many others) is to have the steel sitting on it's keyhead-side endplate and have the two back legs off, and then you just have to shut one eye and look down that finger for the hole when you are putting the hook in. I put another on in my C6 tonight as a matter of fact, and that's the way to do it.

Richard, I think that right now, until anyone else installs this, it's possible that you and I have the two easiest playing push/pull guitars in the world.

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Duane, do the ends of the wires, actually fasten onto the fingers themselves?

If they do, couldn't you thread a hole into the finger, and then use a small threaded rod and screw it into the finger. The other end of the small rod, could then be heated and flattened (before hand) then a hole drilled through it, in order to hook the one end of the spring to.

That would look to be a whole lot better. To me it would? Unless I'm totally off base of where that wire actually hooks onto behind the finger?

Just trying to run this through my head so it would make for a better appearance with nothing even close for it to rub up against.

But then too, maybe I'm all wet on this. But when folks look underneath a guitar, I feel they should be saying: "Wow, that sure is put together nice."

Don

Duane Reese · Posted 8 Mar 2008 10:26 am

Don, there really isn't any problem with the wires rubbing on the fingers, seriously.

Look at my second photo from the bottom: notice how there is a gap between a raise finger and a neighboring lower (outer) finger... That gap is there specifically for a wire to go in and hook to the finger from the back (the three holes on each finger go clear through and the wire hooks in them from the back.

The only way a wire could have any tendency to rub is if it was bent up and too wide for the gap, or the pull rod wasn't lined up on the finger and was pulling it sideways. On any p/p I've ever seen, the rod is lined right up on the finger and the pulling action is free and easy. My helper spring is also lined up on the finger, and having two wires hooking to it is no problem because one is right above the other, or it's the same actual piece of wire. Again, my original idea of attaching an eye bolt to the front of the finger would've only been a waste of time because there's a hole right there, and all you need to do is slip a hook in and you're done.

Check out John Lacey's Emmons Guitar Homepage and the animated illustrations at the bottom to see even better how a p/p works, or if you can find someone local who has a p/p, see if you can arrange to check it out - that would put your mind at ease about friction I'm sure.

As far as how the thing looks, anyone who is going to be considering this mod probably already owns and/or is familiar with a p/p, and knows what to expect and what to do; no sales pitches here.

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Duane, thanks for that link. Wow! What a complicated deal on simply setting one of them up properly. And I now see what your trying to accomplish as well.

I'm use to seeing simply one finger, whereas I now see that each finger is actually a two part finger (so to speak) one section of it for lowers, and one for raises. (If I'm correct).

I also see what you mean about the factory using the wire to go between the lower and raise portions as well.

Now, I'll have to say this: "If what you're doing works, as in making the pedals, knees easier, then the job you've done was a complete success.

I now see that even from the factory they used nothing more than wire hooks to hook into the fingers.

Question: Are current manufacturers still using the wire hooks, or have they departed from that idea? I had been thinking that they didn't come off the shelfs that way. But now I see I was wrong in assuming that as well.

Thanks again, I read that whole deal, and it was very informative to say the least. But still a whole lot of work involved in setting one up properly from what I read.

Don

Duane Reese · Posted 8 Mar 2008 4:36 pm

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Duane, I want to commend you for not losing your patience (temper) during what to some, may have been taken the wrong way.

I think speaking on terms of a man's pedal steel guitar, is much the same as would be talking about one's wife or family. It would be to me as well.

You've gotta be one hell of a guy.

Thanks,

Don

Duane Reese · Posted 12 Sep 2010 12:11 pm

Bump...

Per request by a gentleman I was talking to on the phone...

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

Duane, this is good stuff. I have had times I would like a helper spring but never thought of hooking it on the lowering rod collar so as to not make a lower harder. I am glad you posted this. Thanks,
Jerry

Duane Reese · Posted 12 Sep 2010 7:15 pm

Thank you, Jerry. I'd be really excited to see someone else gives it a whirl. If you do it, let me know how it works out.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Duane, your p/p looks great. I was really wanting to use this on the D-10 that I finished rebuilding about 6 months ago, but the "helper spring" concept just slipped my mind.

That said, I focused on reducing friction (buffing/polishing the pedal-board axle, changer axles and cross-shaft ends) and then painstakingly balanced the changes on each pedal or lever. Now it plays almost as easily as my Zum.

Still, the helper springs are ingenious, and when I get some time, I'll add them, and be sure to measure cabinet drop before and after.

Duane Reese · Posted 12 Sep 2010 8:03 pm

I wish I still had my push/pull. Crying or Very sad

Well, I do currently play an MCI with the welded frame, which is bad to the bone so I'm not hurting...

But still...man, one of these days, I'll tell you... Smile

Hey I actually did save all of my raise-assist goodies, so if and when I ever do get one again, you know what I'm a gonna do.. Winking

If your p/p plays almost as easy as a Zum now, just imagine how it will be...

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

Duane, here is couple pix of Promat and how they use springs, don't know much about it but hope this helps...

Db

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Duane Reese · Posted 3 Oct 2010 7:46 am

Hmm... Well, all I see there are return springs, compression springs and one stretch spring for a feel-stop function on the 1st string lower...same as what you see in a stock Emmons. The springs we're talking about here are whole different ball game, but thanks for the photos. At first glance, it looks as though this mod could be done on a Promat as well.

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