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Author Topic:  Music Theory and the E9 tuning
Robert Harper


From:
Alabama, USA
Post Posted 28 Feb 2008 1:26 pm     Reply with quote

I read an atricle on the net last night, I think BOB wrote on "C" tuning. In the article it is stated that there is an entire octave on five strings on E9. I also have been told years ago that E9 was created so an entire song could be played on one fret using various levers/pedals. I play a version of faded love on one fret. Is it possible to play a song such as I'm so Lonesome I Could Cry on one fret? Comments
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"Trouble Double Trouble Toil and Trouble" so fitting for life and E9
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post Posted 28 Feb 2008 2:55 pm     Reply with quote

Robert, great song mentioned.
the answer I believe is yes , you can probably do it across one fret but the better answer is

Why would you want to ?

For sure with the ability to create a full family of chords on one fret is an asset but I doubt it was intended to be an appropriate format to PLAY a song.

The dynamics and tonality will be dramatically limited .

here's a link to a new project

http://www.tprior.com/lone_INT.mp3

www.tprior.com
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Robert Harper


From:
Alabama, USA
Post Posted 28 Feb 2008 3:04 pm     It is there Reply with quote

Tony great playing on one of if not my favorite songs. To answer your other question. To play it on one fret would, be to play the song as Jimmy Day envisioned E9, because it would be a learining experience and as mountain climbers say. It Is There.
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"Trouble Double Trouble Toil and Trouble" so fitting for life and E9
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John Roche


From:
England
Post Posted 28 Feb 2008 3:11 pm     Reply with quote

sound's like a wind up...
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Bob Hoffnar


From:
Austin, Tx
Post Posted 28 Feb 2008 3:48 pm     Reply with quote

For I'm "so lonesome..." if you play it in C the 5 chord (G) can remain on the 8th fret and be played with no pedals or levers by playing strings 5,2 and 1.

The trick with playing it in C on the 3rd fret (pedals down position) is the 4 chord (F). You can play the F chord on fret 3 on strings 9, 7 and string 6 with the B pedal down.

I figured out a bunch of ways to do stuff like that out of practical need. If I'm playing a 3 set bar gig and didn't have time to eat I can finish my sandwich while in about 3 different keys. Its good for a laugh to be eating dinner while soloing. Its a good way to help learn the instrument that can come in handy in more purely musical ways.
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post Posted 28 Feb 2008 3:59 pm     Reply with quote

I think the Jimmy Day thing is literal, my feeling is that it is REAL important to know whats going on across ONE fret because as Bob so rightly explains, doing it may be something you decide to do one day, while eating your sandwich.

I view this ONE fret thing as fundamental, it can be 3 blind mice,the lesson is to know what the changes are across the fretboard because if you don't, well then, 3 Blind Mice is out of the question ! And so is the Sandwich I suppose Sad
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Clyde Mattocks


From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
Post Posted 28 Feb 2008 4:37 pm     Reply with quote

At times, just to amuse myself, I have sat down and played entire songs open. I agree, it is dynamically
limiting, but it is, in a manner, a practice excercise. It is kind of fun to do, while experimenting with effects.
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Bob Hoffnar


From:
Austin, Tx
Post Posted 28 Feb 2008 9:35 pm     Reply with quote

With a basic 3 and 5 E9 set up that can do tuneable splits you can get well over an octave of a chromatic scale. That means you can play any melodic figure in any key. Harmonizing is the rough part.
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Marc Friedland


From:
Fort Collins, CO
Post Posted 28 Feb 2008 9:37 pm     Reply with quote

Robert,
Continuing with what Bob said about playing the (4) F chord on the 3rd fret --
Another choice would be strings 1, 2, & 3 played together while engaging the *B pedal, and **D knee lever. I admit it's a weird voicing but it is an option, and I have used it on rare occasions.

*B pedal -- the pedal that raises your 3rd string a half step
**D lever -- the knee lever that lowers your 2nd string a half step
-- Marc
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Gary Dunn


From:
near Camel City, NC
Post Posted 29 Feb 2008 6:19 pm     Reply with quote

Tony,

That is beautiful expression of a great classic.

Gary
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David L. Donald


From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
Post Posted 29 Feb 2008 6:41 pm     Reply with quote

I can get on one fret:

Code:
I        Open

Im       (G, non-standard lever)

I sus4   pB

IIm      pBC,
 
IIIm     Eb lever

 
IV       pAB

IVm      pAB+ Bb lever

V        pB+Eb lever

VI       pA+F lever

VIm      pA

VII more or less
         pC  s2 s 4 s5 
3rd inversion b5 b3 1, no 7


That pretty much covers all the main chords
of a key on one fret. If you can drop 1 fret
more is available.

I drop my 3rd on a lever and have D on s2,
with the Bb lever I can get a m7b5 of the I chord easily.

I use the minor lever a lot for passing chords,
so I don't miss the lever that's gone to get it.
I am not trying to copy classic players,
so I don't miss it like some might.
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Real happiness has no strings attached.
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J D Sauser


From:
Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic.
Post Posted 1 Mar 2008 7:29 am     Re: Music Theory and the E9 tuning Reply with quote

Robert Harper wrote:
I read an atricle on the net last night, I think BOB wrote on "C" tuning. In the article it is stated that there is an entire octave on five strings on E9. I also have been told years ago that E9 was created so an entire song could be played on one fret using various levers/pedals. I play a version of faded love on one fret. Is it possible to play a song such as I'm so Lonesome I Could Cry on one fret? Comments


Better than that, I think it is possible to play ANY song or piece on any ONE fret and in ANY key.
An E9th 3&5 has all notes available at every each fret. Some notes would have to be grabbed an octave higher or lower than the basic melody though.

Some one once posted a recording of Julian Tharpe playing Danny Boy all open (although on a 12 or 14 string, probably).

Jeff Newman plaid one song mostly open (it's on you-tube, search for "Jeff Newman", although he too used a 12 string universal and did some finger pulls in the head stock for added bends.

... J-D.
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Don Brown, Sr.


From:
New Jersey
Post Posted 1 Mar 2008 8:03 am     Reply with quote

Question was:
Quote:
"Is it possible to play a song such as I'm so Lonesome I Could Cry on one fret? Comments"


JD is correct. There are many very easy, not to mention, "Long Black Limousine" was always a great song to play open E9th on.

PS: Not to mention, that after playing it through it's entirety open, and then play through it again, with all of the soul and feeling, it added much and got many requests to repeat it.

Many times, if you want folks to sit up and take notice, you have to first, give them something to take notice of. Like anything else in life. You only get back what you give. If you make people feel as if they're a part of you, so they will become.

Treat them like you're the show and they are nothing more than patrons, and you won't have a show much longer.

Don
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Marc Friedland


From:
Fort Collins, CO
Post Posted 1 Mar 2008 9:31 am     Reply with quote

The following is a portion of a post I made a while back, that I think sort of goes with what we're talking about here.

With my copedent of 10 strings, 3 pedals and 5 knee levers, I have the following complete major scales without placing the bar on any frets:
Granted, I donít practice all of these, and some of them are quite awkward for me to play smoothly. Iím not necessarily recommending someone should or needs to play anything but the E, A & B scales in the open position, but none-the-less, depending on your copedent, many of them are there, if you care to explore and experiment with them.

E) E F# G# A B C# D# E
A) A B C# D E F# G# A (lower octave)
A) A B C# D E F# G# A (higher octave)
B) B C# D# E F# G# A# B
D) D E F# G A B C# D
G) G A B C D E F# G
F) F G A Bb C D E F
F#) F# G# A# B C# D# F F#
Eb) Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb
Db) Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db

If my brain wasnít already so tired from thinking of all this, I might even be able to come up with more.
Obviously, Iím only referring to the Major scales, and not thinking about the Minor, Dominant 7th, or other various scales at this time.

Marc
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Donny Hinson


From:
Balto., Md. U.S.A.
Post Posted 1 Mar 2008 2:35 pm     Re: Music Theory and the E9 tuning Reply with quote

Robert Harper wrote:
I also have been told years ago that E9 was created so an entire song could be played on one fret using various levers/pedals.


Well, what you were told was wrong, that's not why the tuning was created. Actually, while it may be convenient to have all the notes available on a single fret (using pedals), that's not really important, and it's certainly not what the pedal steel is all about. The pedal steel was developed to have different chords available (using the pedals) in one position, to have different basic tunings available on one neck, as it were. Later, with the advent of more and more pedals, it became possible to have all 12 scale tones available at a single fret. However, that's not the way the instrument is usually played, and it remains only a mild curiosity to even attempt to play it like that.

The ability to seamlessly morph from one chord to another, the ability bend certain strings while leaving others unaffected, is now the heart of the instrument (rather than just offering diffrent tunings). Today's E9th tuning was merely a gradual adaptation of the old "E" tuning, with little bits added here and there by players like Day, Emmons, and Green, to get certain chords and sounds. It remains, for better or worse, a sort of "work in progress", with new changes being developed all the time.
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post Posted 1 Mar 2008 3:35 pm     Reply with quote

I can't resist..

One fret..well, if we use a six string as comparison we all know that pedals and/or knee levers raise tones or lower tones 1/2 and 1 full tone in the same fashion as moving your fingers up or down frets on the six stringer..

So is it really ONE fret OR could it be termed the equivalent of up to FIVE frets played in ONE position counting the ROOT fret as 1 ?

Curious minds need to know Razz
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John Roche


From:
England
Post Posted 1 Mar 2008 4:42 pm     Reply with quote

I can't believe that you guys have fallen for this. this guy is having a laugh ...
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Bo Legg


Post Posted 4 Mar 2008 4:06 pm     Reply with quote

There is a big advantage to playing everything on one fret. This baby comes in at 10 pounds.
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Sonny Jenkins


From:
New Braunfels, Tx. 78130
Post Posted 5 Mar 2008 6:11 am     Reply with quote

Like Jeff Newman used to say,,,there is a real good reason why steel guitar was referred to in the past as "slide" guitar,,,,,it's the lateral movement that creates the distinctive sound,,,hence the advantage of "moving into chord inversions,,,,,if you don't like the sound of movement,,try a piano.
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Bill Hatcher


From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
Post Posted 5 Mar 2008 6:43 am     Reply with quote

You should hear Julian Tharpe play Danny Boy without using the bar, just on the open strings. I'm not talking about just the melody either. It is incredible!!!! He used a 14 stringer.
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Bill Mayville


From:
Las Vegas Nevada
Post Posted 7 Mar 2008 5:40 am     One fret Reply with quote

I have shown many students the advantage of being able to play the melody with one fret.I only use one popular song.(your cheatin heart)Including the passing chords.
Then they can see why it is important to know what A and F do,and sound like.
I noticed some one calling the lower of the second string (A D Lever)
It is not.
The D lever in the standard setup is usally on the LKR.Either way ,or where it is ,it lowers the 4 and 8. Not always used by the new guys ,It also can be used as a Maj 7th.
Schooling is great.The best thing you learn is (it all depends).
Bill
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06 Jackson Commemorative ,S 10
Black.For Sale . $18,000 Kidding
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richard burton


From:
Britain
Post Posted 7 Mar 2008 11:32 pm     Reply with quote

Wow!!
I'm confused now Surprised

I've been playing for nearly 30 years, and have always called the lever that lowers the 4th and 8th strings the 'E' lever.

The 'D' lever, to me, is the lever that lowers the 2nd string
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post Posted 8 Mar 2008 2:18 am     Reply with quote

Richard, not to worry, there really is no SET RULES that anyone is going to jail for.

I am thinking Jeff Newman called the 2nd string lever the D lever.

For years I have referred to the 4+ 8 raise as the F lever and the 4+8 lower as the E lever.

It really only matters if you are reading or writing tab. In the bandstand world I doubt anyone is thinking in terms of letter designations .

When I had my Maverick, it only had the 2nd string lever and it was referred to as PEDS A,B,C and the D lever . I think I actually may have some sort of Sho-Bud book that came with the Maverick that refers to the 2nd string as the D lever.

regardless, when reading tab it really doesn't matter if you know YOUR Steel. An arrow UP or DOWN marked on the tab would suffice along with the fret designation. Even an R ( raise) or L (lower) would be appropriate along with the fret designation.

One a player gets to know there own Instrument, looking at a sheet of tab and where the changes are , what letter is assigned really makes no difference.

Last I checked, nobody's doing time for the E vs D lever !
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Bill Mayville


From:
Las Vegas Nevada
Post Posted 8 Mar 2008 5:06 am     D lever Reply with quote

I could be wrong,and love this monster too much to argue.The only reason I say that about the D lever is,Jeff explained it this way. E to F.F = F lever.
D lever. E goes down to D#.
The E lever usally is on the RKR.
THe reason it sounds good to me is.
The E goes up. Then it is a F lever.
When The E goes down,it leaves the E category,and goes to the D category.
The more I think about it, The more I should not preach about the placing names.I am going by the materials I have from all Venders,from 1983.
It is not as important (like I thought ) as just fitting in with the nicest bunch of players I
have ever met.
Bobby lee gave me my first lesson in 1984. I hope most of you have heard him play.They should call him Mr. music.
Thanks guys, for opening my mind somewhat.
Bill
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Bill Mayville
06 Jackson Commemorative ,S 10
Black.For Sale . $18,000 Kidding
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post Posted 8 Mar 2008 5:21 am     Reply with quote

Bill, ahh..Whats a D or an E among friends !

Just know what it does, call it something that makes sense.

Jimmy Crawford used to write tabs with + and - indications..which actually makes perfect sense !


Last edited by Tony Prior on 8 Mar 2008 6:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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