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Topic: Is there a minor chord copedent with the same pedals as E9? |
James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 9 Aug 2009 9:16 am |
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It seems E9 favors major keys which makes sense as country is mostly played in major keys. Is there a minor equivalent?
If the G# B E G# were E C A E you could use the A and B pedals to raise Am to Dm and slide up to Em.
I'm sure this has been done, but what would the remaining strings/pedals be tuned to? |
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Dean Parks
From:
Sherman Oaks, California, USA
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Posted 9 Aug 2009 12:20 pm
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James-
You could do this using an E9 Universal-type tuning:
3 G#
4 E
5 B
6 G#
7 F#
8 E
9 B
10 G#
1 minor (G# minor) is with your lowering-E-to-Eb lever only
---> releasing the Eb lever is the equivalent of your "minor, A pedal"
4 minor (C# minor) is with A pedal only
---> the A pedal is your equivalent of your "minor, B pedal"
5 minor is up 2 frets from 4 minor
But if you want a 5 major, go down 1 fret (from your minor "home" position) with no pedals
For 4 major, stay at your minor home position and use A pedal and F lever (slide up a quarter fret for tuning).
ps, it could be done in regular E9 also, but the "Universal" tuning gives a G# root on the bottom, and the E9 D string makes for lousy strumming.
As for your own tuning (no F# string), all my notes apply, assuming you have an Eb lever and an F lever, and an A pedal |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 9 Aug 2009 12:52 pm
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| I should have been more specific. I'm looking for a minor tuning that would be the inverse of E9. |
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 9 Aug 2009 1:12 pm Minors
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All these major scale positions can be minor simply by starting on the SECOND note of any major scale(This would be the "2" chord of course...In E would be F#m.(Now this is a major simplification of course.) The term RELATIVE MINOR...applies to the relationship between 6 chords and thier common intervals..
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 9 Aug 2009 1:52 pm
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I know my scales and modes and I understand the relative relationship between major and minor keys.
I see the basis of E9 as the G# B E G# strings. It allows an easy I-IV-V with minimal bar movement. Well, I don't play country. In fact, about 90% of the music I play is based in a minor key. There is no doubt about it, it's easier to play in a major key with E9. See THIS current thread. Sure, if I want Am, I just position at the 8th fret and hit the A pedal. But what if I want my similar changes to an E9 copedent, but that would give me a I-IV-V in a minor key?
The E C A E strings, that I described in the original post, combined with the same E9 A/B pedals, would give me what I am looking for (Am-Dm-Em at the open position). It's a start. I'm asking if there is a common minor tuning for pedal steel and what the rest of the strings would be tuned to if I am on the right track. If I had a knee lever or pedal drop the A to a G I would have the relative major, C E G.
I know that C6 has the open minor, but I don't like the changes in the C6 copedent. They don't seem as useful as E9 changes. I'm also open to basing the tuning on another minor chord, it doesn't have to be Am, it was just easier to use as an example. |
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James Collett
From:
San Dimas, CA
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Posted 9 Aug 2009 4:28 pm
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| Tab: |
LKL LKR A B C RKL RKR
1 F#
2 D D#
3 G A G#
4 E F D# F#
5 B C# C#
6 G A G#
7 F#
8 E F D#
9 D C#
10 B C#
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This gives you all minor positions in the same E9 major slots... lets you keep E9 tuning with RKR, and gives you a complete natural minor scale...
Note the D->D# instead of vice versa.
_________________
James Collett |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 9 Aug 2009 4:55 pm
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| James Collett wrote: |
| Tab: |
LKL LKR A B C RKL RKR
1 F#
2 D D#
3 G A G#
4 E F D# F#
5 B C# C#
6 G A G#
7 F#
8 E F D#
9 D C#
10 B C#
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This gives you all minor positions in the same E9 major slots... lets you keep E9 tuning with RKR, and gives you a complete natural minor scale...
Note the D->D# instead of vice versa. |
Looking at strings 2 through 8, I can't figure out how to place the bar on a I/Em and use the pedals to transition to a IV/Am (without moving the bar). |
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Marc Friedland
From:
Fort Collins, CO
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Posted 9 Aug 2009 5:51 pm
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James,
I haven’t thought about this until reading your post.
Here’s one idea I have, perhaps you’ve already considered it, but here goes.
Tune your 3rd & 6th strings to “G” instead of G#
Have your A pedal only raise ½ tone to C instead of C#
Have your B pedal raise the 3rd & 6th strings a full step to A (not the typical ½ step raise)
This way what would in the traditional Major tuning normally be E – A going from open to A & B pedals –
is now Em to Am
I haven’t done a hands-on-experiment, but unless I’m forgetting about something this should work for every inversion:
3 4 5
4 5 6
8 6 5
10 8 6
10 6 4
8 5 3
I haven’t taken the idea any further than this, but at least it’s a start.
Marc |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 9 Aug 2009 9:03 pm
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Here's the problem that started me off on this topic. E9 tuning:
| Tab: |
---LKL----LKR----A----B----C----RKL----RNR
G#--------------------A---------F#--------
E---F------D#--------------F#-----------D-
B---------------C#---------C#-------------
G#--------------------A-------------------
F# -------------------------------------E-
E---F------D#---------------------------D-
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Pros:
You all know them
Cons:
- Am is played at the 8th fret with the A pedal.
- Dm is played by releasing the A pedal and hitting the B and C pedals. Not a smooth minor I-IV transition unless there is some foot technique that I don't know about.
Here's the option that Marc mentioned (I guessed at the 7th and 8th string tuning)
| Tab: |
LKL LKR A B C RKL RKR
3 G A
4 E F D#
5 B C C#
6 G A
7 F#
8 E F D#
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This is the inverse of E9 that I was looking for as it reverses E9s "minor" weaknesses around on the major key.
Pros:
- Em open position
- Am (IV chord) with A and B pedals
- C major with A pedal
Cons:
-No way to get to F major from C major without sliding 5 frets.
Here's one that I'm working through, it's basically a C6, not sure what to do with the 8th string.
| Tab: |
LKL LKR A B C RKL RKR
3 E F
4 A G
5 C D
6 E F
7 G
8 B
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Pros:
- Am open position
- Dm IV chord with A and B pedals
- C major with C pedal at the open position
- F major IV chord with B pedal (easy transition from C major) at the open position
- Am7 at the open position
- Has the benefit of having the same pedal pulls as E9 so changing strings/tuning should be all the modifications necessary to switch between the two for experimenting.
This seems ideal as I can get a minor or major I-IV transition without moving the bar.
Cons: haven't found any yet. Please chime in here before I go too far in this direction.
I guess it might make more sense to switch the A and C string in the above tuning to get a familier C6th A C E interval sequence.
Last edited by James Mayer on 10 Aug 2009 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 9 Aug 2009 11:05 pm
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After working this out for a while, I ended up at
C D E A C E
Which is the the same as
E F# G# C# E G#
C#m11 tuning. One note different than what I started with. Lowering the C# to B and changing the A pedal to raise E to F would be the only difference.
| Tab: |
LKL LKR A B C RKL RKR
3 G# A
4 E F
5 C# B
6 G# A
7 F#
8 E
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The minor and major I-IV transitions are still there.
Anyone ever tried it?
My head hurts. |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 10 Aug 2009 9:25 am
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| Should I take the silence as an indication that this is bad idea on my part? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2009 10:33 am
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I always thought that C6th (Am7) was the "minor copedent".
On E9th, I have E to F# on a lever which makes minors very easy to get.
| Tab: |
p1 p2 LKV
G# +A
E +F#
B +C#
G# +A
F#
E
B +C#
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Think of p1 as the i chord. To get the iv, you add p2 and LKV to it. That's sort of like a minor A+B change. To get the V, you do p1+p2 and slide back one fret.
That's my basic root position for playing in minor keys. I have a G# to G pedal, but I don't use it as a root position very often.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2009 10:48 am
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Now look at this. Suppose you have B lower to A# (the X lever) on your vertical, with a split tuned to get a C note from your first pedal. Also, assume that you can lower G# to G on a lever.
| Tab: |
pA pB kX kE kG
G# +A -G
E -D#
B +C# -A#
G# +A -G
F#
E -D#
B +C# -A#
i = G lever
iv = (A+X)+B
V7 = B+E |
All at one fret. On open strings it gives you Em, Am and B7. I think that might be what you're looking for.
_________________
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 10 Aug 2009 11:04 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| .... with a split tuned to get a C note from your first pedal..... |
I'm not sure what this means. What is a split? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2009 11:08 am
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Tunable splits are a feature of most modern steel guitars. If you have a pedal that raises a string and another that lowers it, the split tuner allows you to tune the note that occurs when you use them together.
In this case, we have the B strings raised to C# and lowered to A#. The split tuner adjustment gives you an accurate C note when the two are used together. This is one of the most common splits in use today.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 10 Aug 2009 11:13 am
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Oh, that makes sense. I just learned something.
So, I'm reading that you suggest sticking with E9 and making it work. I was thinking I would come up with a unique sound and revolutionize the instrument.  |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2009 11:23 am
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Yeah, I'm just saying that the changes you described are available with fairly standard E9th levers. I don't see what you'd gain by changing to a whole new tuning. It's really hard to think of musical transitions that can't be done on E9th.
The E9th is an incredibly versatile system. It seems slanted towards major scales because of the way it's taught, but all of the scales, modes and chords are there.
When you learn piano, you are taught in the key of C on the white keys first. If he'd never heard anything else, a beginning piano student might think that the "piano sound" is major and diatonic, and that the instrument needs to be modified to play other kinds of music.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 10 Aug 2009 3:17 pm
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| Very good points. I will look further into the E9 hidden passageways. |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 11 Aug 2009 12:48 pm
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Bob on another thread you posted:
| b0b wrote: |
But frankly, I'd tune it to the middle strings of a standard C6th.
| Tab: |
LKL LKR P1 P2 P3 RKL RKR
E +F
C ++D -B +C#
A +Bb ++B
G -F#
E -Eb
C +C#
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It's sooo close to making sense. The part that has me asking "why?" is that P3 change. If it was just D with no B, you would have a nice transition to Dm. Why is the B thrown in there? I see that you can easily get a G chord with it, but you yourself said "I thought C6 was the minor copedent". |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2009 1:13 pm
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It's a standard C6th change. I wouldn't have thought of it on my own. I'm actually struggling with it myself.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2009 1:17 pm
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| James Mayer wrote: |
Here's the problem that started me off on this topic. E9 tuning:
| Tab: |
---LKL----LKR----A----B----C----RKL----RNR
G#--------------------A---------F#--------
E---F------D#--------------F#-----------D-
B---------------C#---------C#-------------
G#--------------------A-------------------
F# -------------------------------------E-
E---F------D#---------------------------D-
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Pros:
You all know them
Cons:
- Am is played at the 8th fret with the A pedal.
- Dm is played by releasing the A pedal and hitting the B and C pedals. Not a smooth minor I-IV transition unless there is some foot technique that I don't know about.
. |
James, nobody chimed here on your "Cons" list... just a small point, but you can play both Am and Dm on the E9 without moving the bar:
- Am at the 1st fret with the E-lower knee lever
- Dm at the 1st fret with the A-pedal
Good luck! I'm looking forward to seeing what copedent you come with. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2009 2:29 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
But frankly, I'd tune it to the middle strings of a standard C6th.
| Tab: |
LKL LKR P1 P2 P3 RKL RKR
E +F
C ++D -B +C#
A +Bb ++B
G -F#
E -Eb
C +C#
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| James Mayer wrote: |
| It's sooo close to making sense. The part that has me asking "why?" is that P3 change. If it was just D with no B, you would have a nice transition to Dm. Why is the B thrown in there? I see that you can easily get a G chord with it, but you yourself said "I thought C6 was the minor copedent". |
You could remove that ++B change, and instead put a half-stop on the LKR to raise it to +Bb/B. P2+P3 would give you the Am to Dm change you want on the high strings, and you'd still have the standard Em7 as LKR+P3. With the Eb and Bb (LKR+P2) you have Cm7. There are minors all over the place in C6th.
_________________
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 11 Aug 2009 2:42 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
You could remove that ++B change, and instead put a half-stop on the LKR to raise it to +Bb/B. P2+P3 would give you the Am to Dm change you want on the high strings, and you'd still have the standard Em7 as LKR+P3. With the Eb and Bb (LKR+P2) you have Cm7. There are minors all over the place in C6th. |
That's pretty much the conclusion that I am arriving at. This modified C6 may be perfect for the music I play and I arrived at non-pedal C6 the same way. However, I'm noticing there aren't as many full-step pedal bends as E9.....meaning it would probably sound less "pedal steely". That might be a compromise that I'm willing to live with. However, I don't simply want a better lap steel. I'm just talking out loud, at this point.
Thanks for you help with this. I hope these threads are actually interesting to someone besides myself. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2009 2:59 pm
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On C6th, some people consider the Bb lever to be optional, and some don't like to play without it. There's also a standard pedal (P4, the leftmost on the rack) that raises both A's to B. Again, some people consider it to be optional, and some don't like to play without it.
Splitting the P7 (your P3) makes sense and isn't too big of a deal. The real question is whether the half-stop would mess up the smooth full-tone raise licks that are so pretty on the standard P4 and P7.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 11 Aug 2009 3:31 pm
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I know I'm high maintenance, but I'll be working with LKL, LKR, P1, P2, P3, RKL and RKR. I'm guessing most C6 necks are the second neck of a D10 and use less knee levers, therefore you are using strange words like "P7"?
EDIT: nevermind, just needed to do some reading. |
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