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Topic: 4th String Zing |
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 10 Feb 2013 11:29 am |
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I assume you got to this 6-year-old thread from my link here - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=240904
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| No sanding is what i was told. I just polish out with Simichrome every string set change, sanding will wear a shape in the finger. |
Told by whom? Paul Franklin (both of them) are a pretty authoritative source, in my book, and I have found that what they recommend works for me.
My experience - Simichrome will not take out macroscopically large burrs, especially those caused by wound strings. But even plain steel strings can wear away the aluminum to the point where they need more than a polishing compound.
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| Is there a reason aluminum was chosen for the fingers knowing the strings were made of a harder material and the possible consequences thereof? |
What I've seen from builders and players alike is that the main reason aluminum is used is that they like the natural tonality of the instrument. There are a number of threads that describe the hardness of various grades of aluminum, and even the notion of anodizing it to better resist scratching. I don't think the main issue is cost.
Last edited by Dave Mudgett on 10 Feb 2013 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2013 11:49 am
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| Bent and I had a conversation about using Bronze for fingers. |
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Carl McLaughlin
From:
St.Stephen,New Brunswick,Can
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Posted 10 May 2013 4:01 pm Sanding fingers
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If you go to a hobby /crft store they sell a very small 1/4 "wide hand held and operated belt sander,available replaceable belts in different grits.I use one to fine tune the reeds on harmonicas,its that precise..The unit is US made ,i dont know the brand,try LEE TOOLS,the belt holder is tensioned by a spring,when one part is worn tou just turn to a new spot.Carl 
_________________
Now have a SX 6 string lap in G,.A Tele plus telecaster, Larrivee acoustic.Also have a Fender resonator guitar with new Quarterman cone and spider,and an Allan tailpiece.Playing through a Fender Super Champ XD,using a little delay on the amp and a Harmonix Holy Grail Echo pedal,set on Hall turned to about 1pm.Just got a Fender Dual 6 Stringmaster style. Bought a Yamaha FGX5 Recently and love it. |
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John Roche
From:
England
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Posted 11 May 2013 2:35 am
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| I found that if you take your tone bar and with the tip of the bar press down very hard on the string just in front of the finger it will stop the buzz... |
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Franklin
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Posted 11 May 2013 4:31 am
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| Aluminum is used for tonal reasons. I know that Sho-Bud experimented with Brass and Stainless steel. The tone change those metals brought to the instrument was mostly criticized. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 May 2013 4:40 am
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GFI started using Stainless Fingers on their pro models around 2007.
I own a 2006 GFI, and never noticed the difference, but some folks do, and think it's an improvement.
So many variables... My 1970 Emmons still sounds best to my ears. |
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Franklin
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Posted 11 May 2013 6:51 am
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| Joey Ace wrote: |
GFI started using Stainless Fingers on their pro models around 2007.
I own a 2006 GFI, and never noticed the difference, but some folks do, and think it's an improvement.
So many variables... My 1970 Emmons still sounds best to my ears. |
Joey,
And your Emmons has the aluminum. Its always the summation of a lot of little subtle differences that make the whole thing sound phenomenal. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 11 May 2013 6:59 am
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| I'm still curious about bronze. After all, it's considered a "musical" metal. They don't make bells out of aluminum or stainless steel. I can remember playing banjos with aluminum pots, and they sounded terrible in comparison to a banjo with a bell bronze pot. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 May 2013 7:41 am
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John, not a huge difference in brass and bronze compositions. I do have some bronze on hand and am hoping to try it out when I get time
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Bob Ritter
From:
pacfic, wa
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Posted 11 May 2013 8:18 am
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| I think the problem can be the way you hold the bar in your hand and slide it on the strings. Even the way you pick the strings with your thumb and fingers can cause them vibrate in a way that makes a hiss or a zing. There is a video on you tube of Buddy playing Blue Jade at one point he hit a little zinger and a little hiss was made you can see him kinda turn his head in frustration that it happened. So yeah even a grandmaster can run into the problem on occasion. Tweaking the setting on the effects and amps can hide this type of stuff too....02 |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 11 May 2013 8:22 am
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Bent,
I recall that we have discussed this before. I'm unable to find the chart I have seen before, but here's a quote about hardness;
"In General- and I have to qualify that by saying I'm considering the metals to be in the annealed condition, the aluminum is 1100 alloy, the T6 (not annealed, but age hardened) aluminum is a 2000 or 7000 series alloy, and the titanium is 6Al-4V alloy rather than the commercially pure stuff (6-4 is a lot more common than CP)- the order would be aluminum, brass, bronze, T6 aluminum, mild steel, stainless steel, and titanium. If the metals are in their hardest conditions, from heat treating or cold work, the order would be aluminum, brass, T6 aluminum, bronze, titanium, mild steel, and stainless steel (cutlery grades)."
So bronze is harder, and would resist wear better than aluminum. It also is very slippery when used as bushings and bearings. From wiki;
"Bronze also has very low metal-on-metal friction, (snip) It is still widely used today for springs, bearings, bushings, automobile transmission pilot bearings, and similar fittings, and is particularly common in the bearings of small electric motors. Phosphor bronze is particularly suited to precision-grade bearings and springs. It is also used in guitar and piano strings."
More about "musical" uses for bronze, from wiki;
"Bell Bronze is used to make the tone rings of many professional model banjos. The tone ring is a heavy (usually 3 lbs.) folded or arched metal ring attached to a thick wood rim, over which a skin, or most often, a plastic membrane (or head)is stretched-it is the bell bronze that gives the banjo a crisp powerful lower register and clear, bell-like treble register-"
So,,, it seems to me that bronze might be well worth experimenting with. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 May 2013 9:32 am
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John, yes that info is right on I believe. So far I have not have had any reports of string gouging on the finger. So for that purpose, it works fine. I have in my possession a big grave marker(18X40")by 3/8" thick.
Need to get comfortable with foundry work before I start on bronze fingers. They need to be melted and poured for sure.
As to tonal properties like sustain, I did a very basic test when I got the slab home...I hung it up in a string from the ceiling and hit the thing with a hammer and it kept on ringing for about 4 minutes.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 11 May 2013 11:10 am
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Bent,
Do you have to cast it because the dimensions of your marker aren't suitable? Seems like it might be more economical to buy a chunk you can machine, rather than going through all that's involved with casting.????
JB |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 May 2013 11:26 am
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John, as for the marker, yes it's uneven so it would have to be cut chunks off and cast. Also, to be true to the bell idea..bells are cast and I am wondering if machining from a billet would change the tonal properties.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Jeremy Marcum
From:
Northport, Alabama... USA
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Posted 11 May 2013 11:26 am
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Has any Steel Guitar manufacturer ever made parts from Titanium? I would like to hear the difference in a guitar that has Titanium fingers, pull rods and pedal rods.
Im sure it would be a lot more expensive to build though. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 11 May 2013 11:43 am
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Well Bent,
You're still going to have to finish machine the cast parts, no? I was thinking you could get some flat bar stock, close to the dimensions you need, and that would make machining easy. |
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Johan Jansen
From:
Europe
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Posted 12 May 2013 2:50 am
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I have three steelguitars I use a lot.
All 3 of them have BL705 pick-ups in them.
My Derby has the aluminum changer, it has the sound that fits in very well in live-performances. Good dynamic values
My WBS has a brass changer, dynamics are less then the Derby, for that it has more sustain and stays more clean in the Hughey-zone. String-separation very good.
My Sho~Bud Fender has a kind of a chromed potmetal changer. Tone is warm, sweet and very good for studio. It finds it's place in the mix very well.
So, it's personal taste to me, without saying one is better or worse...
JJ |
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Franklin
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Posted 12 May 2013 6:20 am
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Lets not forget that Sho-Bud and Emmons developed a tone that defined the sound of a pedal steel guitar. Most companies are still chasing those tones....Just like a telecaster is always expected to sound like a telecaster they needed to maintain their tone.
Short and sweet...Brass changed the signature tone.......If a number of players who critiqued those parts for their sound had said "I like the way its sounding".... I'm guessing bronze or brass would have been offered as a custom order option. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 12 May 2013 6:48 am
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I wonder if anodized aluminum would work well? One builder that I know of does this and swears by it. No more grooving. Paul Sr and Jr, what is your experience with this?
Also, while on the subject, is your experience the same with brass for the rollers, or does it matter less in that end?
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 12 May 2013 6:51 am
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| John Billings wrote: |
Well Bent,
You're still going to have to finish machine the cast parts, no? I was thinking you could get some flat bar stock, close to the dimensions you need, and that would make machining easy. |
Well, John, it's like this...some builders recommend using cast parts like end plates, keyheads etc, for tone. I thought, since I was going to the trouble, to use cast material in these parts as well, especially since they are a direct string contact item. What are y'alls feeling on this?
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
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Posted 13 May 2013 7:59 pm
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Just thought I would add my two cent on the string-zing problem. When a string starts the "sitar" effect, I usually just change it and move on. But the last time a 4th string "E" that went out on me, I thought I'd have a closer look before the string popped.
My guitar is new and the fingers are pristine...no problem there. When I removed the 4th string It appears it had a pronounced bend right at the apex on the changer finger. I use my 3rd pedal quite a bit and I believe that over time, a bend is created at the bridge point of the 4th string when it's in the full raised F# position.....point "A". When the string is returned to the "E" position, there remains a slight lifting in the string right at the bridge point.
Well, that's my most recent experience. I've had my share of galled changer fingers too....just not on new guitars. It's also possible that the various brands of strings have different tempers at the ball end.
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Jerry Jones |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 14 May 2013 4:29 am
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Here's a simple suggestion that works for me and that DOESN'T involve buffing, sanding, replacing of the finger, etc. It takes all of two minutes.
Loosen the string. Take a tiny piece of paper and put it between the finger and the string. Retighten and tune the string.
I swear it works and, no I don't hear any tonal difference or feel any difference in the height of the string. If for some reason you don't like it then just remove the little piece of paper and go the hugely bothersome and time-consuming other routes.
Total time trying this solution out? Less than five minutes, at most.
If it doesn't work with a single paper thickness then fold the paper once. |
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Dave Hepworth
From:
West Yorkshire, UK
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Posted 20 May 2013 1:55 am
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| GFI steels dont have the finger groove problem -nor are they ever likely to as they are made from stainless steel -harder than most stings you are likely to put over them! Thankyou Gene for such forward thinking-this was high up in my selection criterion for a new instument to replace my old worn out ShoBud. |
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Charles Kurck
From:
Living in Arkansas but Heaven is home
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