Loud Pickers

Billy McCombs · From: Bakersfield California, USA

Last night I played with my band, we have been together for 11 yrs. Thats with differant guitar players over the years. The first set was so loud I could not beleave it. We have this hot 24 yr. old picker that thinks that he has to play his tube amp wide open. Were always loud by the last set but to start that way is to much. Tonight when we set up Im gona lay into his A$%$S. I already have some hearing lose and dont want to lose what I have.If they dont turn down Im gona pack my gear after the second set and leave. It was that bad. I just wanted to VENT to someone because Im sure this has happened to others.Thanks for the ear.
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78 Emmons PP,Great tone.82 Emmons SKH #56

Larry Petree · From: Bakersfield. Ca. USA

Bill, I know exactly where you are coming from. I have played that small club, and I don't see how the guitar players can stand it themselves. But we only had one lead player, and you have two. I am surprised that the club owner can stand that volume. Good luck tonight, use your ear plugs. Larry
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Larry Petree, Bakersfield Ca.

jim flynn · From: Salado,Texas

Billy, I think everyone at one time or another has the same experience. You didn't say what kind of music you play and what venue, but my advice is: 1. If the rest of the band feels the same, go to this "kid" and politely tell him.
2. Remind him that the music is for the patrons, and they too complain of the loudness.
3. Make him aware that he can be a valuable part of your group, and but needs to listen to whats going on.
4. Give him the spotlight once in a while.

Sometimes this doesn't always work, but if the guy is good he may be worth saving,plus you could become a mentor to a future famous person.

Jim

Rick Nicklas · From: Verona, Mo. (deceased)

Billy, I am 60 years old and have perfect hearing... I can hear the highest tones and lowest ones perfect. The ear test people at the hospital are always amazed at my hearing. I learned a little secret ages ago when playing with someone that is over the edge in volume or they happen to point their amp your way. I put just a pinch of a cotton ball in my ear. Not too much, just enough to break the extra decibals (or what ever they are called). You can put too much cotton and it kills yours and the rest of the bands tone. Just experiment with a little cotton. Nobody will even notice you have it in your ear. I run several different tractors on a farm now and I do the same thing. It makes life much easier and a good safety measure for your hearing. If you are married, this works great when you are getting a lecture from the old la.... err I mean your life partner. Very Happy

Bob Cox · From: Buckeye State

A set of in ear monitors are a great way to listen to the band volume you like.They also have a safety feature to stop any damaging Db's.You have a dual
jack,one for your steel and one for the band.They are pricey,but really work well.

L. A. Wunder · From: Lombard, Illinois, USA

I too, know where you're comming from. I have the same problem in church, of all places, and it gripes me right where my body meets the chair. Our band has three guys with electric guitars, and one of them is 17 years old. Half the time I can't even hear myself pick, even with the volume pedal "floored." (and I'm not trying to grandstand, just trying to hear if I'm on key) What is it about an electric guitar, that makes the player feel the need to crank the volume? I know both the "adult" players know better than that, and I'm sure the kid does, too, but they still play too loudly most of the time.
Protect your hearing if you can, and give that guy heck anyway. Sometimes people do stuff like that, just because they can get away with it.

Jonathan Cullifer · From: Gallatin, TN

I have had several bad experiences this week too. One was so loud that I could not hear my amp (Nashville 112) wide open right behind me. I carry earplugs religiously, but I'm amazed how so many people at my school (and elsewhere) don't understand how to balance volume.

If musicians want to play for the sake of themselves, that's what rehearsal space and rhythm tracks are for. When you're in front of an audience, that's a whole different ball game.

Gordon Borland · From: San Antonio, Texas, USA

Here is the deal.
If the guy in charge of the band does not go out and check the over all blend and make it correct then the band sucks.
If you need the money then stuff your ears.
Anyone in the band that is "too loud" is a flat tire on
the race car and the car owner does not have a clue.
I have played with many clueless bands. Once.
For the record I was clueless in the early years until a musician educated me.
Learn, do then teach.
_________________
Gordon Borland
MSA D10,1974 Fender twin reverb

Tommy R. Butler · From: Nashville, Tennessee

Wow !! I think I understand how the guitar player I worked with tonite felt.. He asked me to turn down two times and we were on Broadway in Nashville. Loudest guitar players in the world play here. Heck I am older than he is..

c c johnson · From: killeen,tx usa * R.I.P.

Stick to the old "maxim". If you can,t play good, play loud. CC

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I like to think of myself as being tolerant and open minded. I play a little guitar myself, and I know that it's sometimes necessary to crank the amp a little bit to get the optimum sound, but lately it seems all the guitar players I play with are just over the top, out of reasonable parameters. The situation is offensive and painful. It's getting so bad, that I'm considering giving it up.

The current standard seems to be "extreme" everything with attitude. Lead pickers want to control the music. No such thing as playing with dynamics and feeling. It's dime everything and go for it. When you start with everything cranked to 10, there's no room for anything. How can you bring the steel or other instrument somewhere in the song and have it bloom effectively when you have to play this loud to be heard?

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Robert Leaman · From: Murphy, North Carolina, USA

This topic reminds me of an occasion when my wife and I went to a club in Chicago. There were two bands and the first was on when we arrived. As is usual, they confused quality with quantity and they were so loud that my wife and I needed to shout to make ourselves heard to each other. We were almost ready to leave when that band stopped and the other band took the stand. They had a superb pedal steel player who also sang while providing his own fills, a very good guitar player, a drummer, and a bass man. They were all exceptionally good musicians. However, they DID NOT play loudly. One might think that background conversation in the club over powered the subdued music but everyone shut up and listened to what was an exceptionally pleasant 2 hours of very good music. I was one of many who complimented the band on their good taste and performance.

My wife stayed for their entire set and left just prior to the other band's return. The difference between the two bands stays in my mind but its been nearly thirty years since that experience.

Mike Sweeney · From: Nashville,TN,USA

Anyone who thinks volume is the answer should go to The Station Inn in Nashville on a Monday night and hear the Time Jumpers play. You can sit six feet from the stage (we always do) and still carry on a normal conversation. Just my opinion.

Teresa Sweeney

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I've been playing guitar a lot longer than steel, and I have been in some bands where "crank it up and play" was the modus operandi for everybody. That was what people came to hear. It depends on the context, and loud is not always bad.

I agree that there is a limit. I saw The Who at the Boston Tea Party in 1969 or 1970 and it was so painfully loud that even back then, a lot of people were holding their ears or retreating for the ante area in the back of the room where it wasn't so ridiculous. It sure didn't help Pete Townshend's hearing any, that's for sure, as he found out the hard way. I have seen some shows recently that I just had to leave because they were probably 10dB above the pain threshold and I had left my earplugs at home.

I also agree that it is very annoying to be playing a sensitive, melodic ballad where everybody is holding back, and then hear a loud, obnoxious guitar player stomp all over it with all three pentatonic blues licks they know at triple the ensemble volume.

But there are differences in perception about what constitutes musical power. In some situations, that is holding back, leaving lots of space, and underplaying. But in others, a powerful, unrelenting rhythm section is great also. In this situation, it may be necessary to push pretty hard - when in Rome and all that.

One thing with guitar - I think it's important to bring the right size and type of amp to a gig. Many guitar players use tube amps, and there is a range of sweet spots on most of them. They do need to be pushed into the usable range - running a Twin Reverb on 1.25 doesn't sound good to me in most situations. But the solution is to bring a smaller amp, not crank the Twin.

Understand that sometimes a player makes a mistake and brings the wrong amp and struggles all night trying to walk the line between tolerable tone and tolerable volume. In many situations, guitarists work on the amp's nonlinearity - it's totally different than clean pedal steel, and I'm not talking about just diming everything for maximum distortion. Most guitar players I know think I play pretty clean-sounding, but that's usually an old Fender with no distortion or overdrive pedals run at 4-6, depending on the guitar/amp combination. If that's a Princeton or Deluxe Reverb in a small club, it's not real loud, but if it's a Twin or Dual Showman Reverb, it better be a pretty "big and loud" room. One of the things I like about modelers like the Pod is that the nonlinearity is in the modeler, and I can get what I need at any volume just run through my Nashville 112.

I hardly think the "playing too loud" syndrome is restricted to guitar players. I have heard steel players with a pair of big ole' Nashville/Session 400s pin people to the back wall in a small club. If you happen to love steel guitar, that may not bug you. But someone who prefers guitar may liken that to your experience listening to loud, distorted guitar.

Oh, yeah - I agree on the Time Jumpers. Wonderful. When I saw them, Andy Reiss was playing a Gibson Barney Kessel into what I think was a late-40s or early 50s Gibson amp. Perfect combination for that type of thing, and he is the model of taste and chops.

Billy McCombs · From: Bakersfield California, USA

Well I made it thru the evening.I had a talk with everyone in the band and it went pretty well. Of course know one would admitte that they were at fault,Anyway, the evening went a lot better and my ears are not ringging like a bell this morning. I guess a little communication can go a long way.I can tell you one thing Im not gonna let it happen again. I think sometimes us steel players sat back and take to much crap from some of these guitar pickers.LOL!! Funny thing was that the singer and drummer were thinking the same thing that we were to loud but would not speak up. I guess thats my job from now on.Anyway,as for ear plugs there great but my sound is just not the same. Billy
_________________
78 Emmons PP,Great tone.82 Emmons SKH #56

Steve Alcott · From: New York, New York, USA

From "Record Producer.com"

"Temporary threshold shift is nature's way for the ear to protect itself against loud sounds.
You will undoubtedly have experienced temporary threshold shift many times in your life. Take the example of going for an evening out to a club where loud music is played...

You have an enjoyable evening, drinking in moderation of course so as not to introduce yet another variable into the quality of your hearing.

Afterwards, you leave with your friends and chat while waiting for the designated driver to bring the car around. People passing by wonder why you are shouting at each other, but to you and your friends everything seems normal.

Then you get in the car. You congratulate your friend on finally getting that hole in the exhaust fixed. The car seems so quiet now...

Of course, it is not the sounds around you that have changed, it is your hearing that has become less sensitive.

Your ears have adjusted to protect the sensitive cochlea in the inner ear. To do this, the three tiny bones (the ossicles) in the middle ear, which normally amplify the sound coming in, are skewed out of alignment to lessen their efficiency.

After the exposure to loud sound has finished, your ears will gradually return to normal. And that is completely normal. The phenomenon of temporary threshold shift has protected your hearing successfully.

However, there is such a thing as overdoing it. If you expose yourself to sound that is very loud, or loud and for long and repeated periods, then you will undoubtedly suffer permanent threshold shift.

When permanent threshold shift occurs, your hearing is permanently damaged and will never recover."

The amp "sweet spot" is a large factor in band volume. I feel, however that TTS is a much bigger cause and is why almost everyone either turns up or plays harder after a few tunes. Your ears have "clamped down" in self-defanse and more volume is needed to have the same aural impact. Then it happens all over again, leading to ever increasing volume onstage. When I play with a band that I know is gonna get loud, I set my amp to the volume I'm willing to go up to, put the custom earplugs in, and let the rest of the band enjoy their inevitable hearing loss. At the end of the gig, I pull the plugs, and go home without the feeling of having been beaten up for four hours.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Billy, I'm glad your situation improved. Hopefully, the guy got the hint and it'll remain so.

Interesting info there Steve......I played last week with a guy who used a bassman head and 2/12 cab with a bender tele. Had a relatively decent sound and could play a little, but too loud. I got there a little later than everyone else and guess what?...they saved me a spot....right next to the guitar.

During a sound check of sorts, I mentioned to everyone that the stage volume was just too loud overall.

At the first break, members said they couldn't hear me....I repeated my complaint about the stage volume level and refused to play any louder. They put me in the monitors and that helped everyone but the guitar player had some kind of problem with me actually being heard, so he turned up again. I was relieved when it was over. I can't count the times I've experienced this same situation.

Colin Mclean · From: Rancho Santa Margarita, CA

I saw a band in a bar in San Diego a few months back, and they sounded great. They weren't loud, but they still sounded powerful and commanded your attention. The guitar players were running original BF Fender Deluxe Reverbs. The lead singer/guitarist called me up for a couple of Petty tunes, and I noticed he had a piece of plywood propped up in front of the amp, blocking about 70% of his speaker, with the amp sitting on the floor.

Thus, a low-wattage amp combined with the sound barrier made for fantastic tone, and reasonable volume. Thus, the band actually sounded good. Very smart.

I can't tell you all how many times I've seen bands start playing WAY too loud and immediately just clean out the room. Nobody ever walks out because the band is too quiet. Very Happy

One thing for guitar players, many think they need high wattage for 'pure' cleans, but then when they want the overdrve benfits of a tube power section, they have to crank it up and blow everyone away. LIttle do they know that with a decent low-watt amp you can completely dime it, and back off the volume on your guitar to get perfect clean tone.

I think all a guitar player ever needs is a 15-25 watt tube amp, and if you need more volume, mic it. Or, if you don't use much, if any overdrive, get a 35-50 watter like a Vibrolux or Super.

Gary Stevenson · From: Northern New York,USA

I know exactly what is being talked about here. Being a newbee to lap steels, I hesistate to turn my amp up too loud in case of the clinkers I make once in a while! But lately even when I have a good feel for the song and know my chops on it, I am drowned out by a loud bass speaker and two guitar players cranked up. I have mentioned this to one of the guitar players and I know he agrees with me, but in a small bar, it tends to get very loud after a couple hours go by.Just my private crabbing............

Steve Alcott · From: New York, New York, USA

In my experience, the lower the stage volume, the better everyone can hear. When I play acoustic bass unamplified, I usually have to explain to at least one person that there's no volume knob; if you want to hear me, you have to play softer. Turning up isn't always the solution.

Brian LeBlanc · From: Falls Church, Virginia, USA

-When I saw him last had 2 Twins with a massive "space" blanket in front to cut volume

- & volume is killing alot of small venue's that only want aque-stick since uncontrolled electric g-tar volumes are killen people!
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'Frenchy' LeBlanc...
ShoBud & Twins

Roger Shackelton · From: MINNESOTA (deceased)

Seems like I read a post quite some time ago where the band members were plugged into the PA and each band member was using an in-ear monitor to control the over all volume of the band.
It certainly worked for that band.

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Someone playing way to loud is about as bad as someone that doesn't know when to not play. Lead players seem to be the worst. If I get into an environment to where Mr. Guitarman is blowing everybody's head off, he plays all the time, then I'll just simply get up in the middle of a set and go to the restroom, get something to drink and mix and mingle with the crowd. Next set, if it starts again, I'll do the same thing. At the end of the night, I'll pack my equipment and leave and won't go back. I played a regular Fri/Sat gig over in Jackson a year or so ago and ran into this problem. Guitarman was playing about 20 different instruments with effects and playing all over the steel parts, as well as the keyboard man. Years ago, I'd put up with crap but I'm 50 now and just don't tolerance BS easily anymore. Ain't gonna do it!

Steve Alcott · From: New York, New York, USA

There's a syndrome I call "Bar Band Guitar Syndrome" It comes from playing all the time in bands that are in reality one or two players short. Thus, the guitarist has to cover it all: harmony, leads, fills, etc. Then, when he gets in a bigger band, he's forgotten how to NOT play.

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