The Steel Guitar Forum

John McGuire · From: Swansea,Illinois, USA

For us who lack a lot of therory, how about some easy approachs to diminished chords? It is seldom when a song I was playing had a diminished, and, I am not really sure what they are used for. My guitar player lately has been telling me to play a diminished and I am lost. The minor approach thread spelled everything out great for me. Printed it out and put it in my seat for quick reference. This forum is better than private lessons!

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

John, on your E9 tuning, play strings 5,6,8,& 9 with your 8th string raised a half (E to F). One way to experiment is to play an open G (no pedals) chord at the 3rd fret and then go to the 8th fret for an open C and then play the four strings I mentioned with the 8th string raised at the 8th fret, drop back three frets & play the same thing, drop back three more frets and do it again. You'll see that diminished chords repeat themselves every three frets. Also, any note in a diminished chord can be the root of that chord.........JH in Va.
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John McGuire · From: Swansea,Illinois, USA

Thanks Jerry, but, when you say they repeat every third fret do you mean a c dim at 8 and 5 or do you mean they repeat evry 3 frets going by the scale? i am just a bit confused.

Stan Paxton · From: Deland, Fl, USA

Jerry, is that what that chord is called? a diminished? played that a lot & never knew what it was, using as a "passing" chord...that is as good an explanation as I have seen, thanks.... Very Happy

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Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

John, in addition to what Jerry told you, a diminished chord is simply flatting the 3rd and 5th intervals of a major chord. I assume you know what those intervals are but for anyone who don't if you run a major scale, Do, Re, Me, Fa, So, La, Te, Do which is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, the Me is the 3rd and the So is the 5th interval. For a G Diminished you can move the bar back from the 3rd to the 2nd fret and raise your E strings which results in the 4th and 8th strings remaining G and the 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 10th strings being flatted so you have a G Dim. with any combination of strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8 and as Jerry stated, you can move up 3, 6, 9, 12 frets up and still have the G Dim. chord as the diminished chord repeats every 3rd fret. A common use for the Dim chord is to move to a 5 chord so you could play G chord, then G Dim and then go to a D. If you are in the key of G, a G# Dim. will transition you to a 2 minor chord which would be play on the 3rd fret with the E strings raised which is a G# Dim then go to A minor. A simple "A" minor would be the 8th fret with the A pedal engaged using strings 3, 4, 5, 6 or 10. This is actually a C6th but the notes are the same as A minor. Or you can get the A minor on the 3rd fret with pedals B and C but that is not as useful because it's harder to find melody notes there. The natural progression would be go to a five chord after the minor, so if you give this a try I think it will help you. Play a G at the 3rd fret, then G# dim (3rd fret with the E's raised), then A minor (8th fret with the A pedal engaged), then go to the 10th fret no pedals or the 5th fret with A and B pedals for the D. As I think you already have been told you can get a simple minor by just going to the major such as 3rd fret is G, move up 3 frets and engage the A pedal and you have G minor notes on the above mentions strings. I did this very hurriedly so if I made any errors I hope someone will correct me.
Jerry

b0b · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Papa Joe Pollick · From: Pontiac, Michigan, USA

John,the notes are the same every 3 frets,just in a different order.Some times they sound better at different positions.PJ

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Once you learn the sound of a dim chord, it's one of the easiest to recognize.

Since you learned how to make minors in the other thread (flat the 3rd), all you have to do is flat the 5th also and you have a dim.

For fun, ask your guitarist to play a dim and slide it up the neck, three frets at a time. You'll recognize that sound from a lot of songs.

If you pick the notes in some fast pattern while moving the position up or down you'll amaze your friends. It sounds a lot more complex than it really is.

Dim chords have to be resolved. They are best used as passing tones. (Zappa would disagree)

BTW, Jerry's post about using the F lever is exactly how I find dim chords in a hurry.

John McGuire · From: Swansea,Illinois, USA

Got it!! Can't wait to try this all tonight. I am going to learn how to play this damn thing yet, or should I say better yet lol

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Ask us about Augmented chords next. Wink

David Doggett · Posted 11 Jul 2007 9:42 am

[Edited: I guess several of us jumped on this at the same time and said the same thing different ways.]

As Jerry says, on E9 using the E to F lever alone gives a diminished chord. Any note of the chord can be considered the root. This is because it is a completely symetrical chord made up of stacked minor 3rds (a note every three half-steps or frets), or stacked tritones. This makes it a sort of rootless chord, and it may be easier to name it by the top melody note that fits the chord.

In an octave there are 4 of these intervals. So if you hit a diminished chord anywhere, if you move up or down three frets you are at a different inversion of the same chord. If you march up the neck with it 3 frets at a time, you hear something that sounds like the villian creeping up on someone in a cartoon or old movie - probably not a progression you'd find much use for in most music.

If moving up three half-steps gives the same chord, that means there are only two notes within the tritone interval that are available for a different diminished chord. So there are only three possible diminised chords, and each one can be called by any of the three potential roots found within it.

The top three notes of a 7th chord are also tritone intervals, for example E G Bb is C7. You actually have to play 4 notes to differentiate a dimished from a 7th. That means you can substitute three notes of a diminished and get a 7th without its root (which you don't usually need on steel). And the top three notes of a 7th substitute for a diminished. So the above three notes could be C7 or Edim, Gdim, or Bbdim.

Also, if you play a minor 3rd with a flatted 5th, you get tritone intervals, for example, C Eb Gb, which would be Cm b5, or Cdim, Ebdim, Gbdim, or Ab7.

So the F lever can be used to get triads that can be used as diminished, 7th, or minor b5 chords.

You don't run across a lot of diminished chords in country. Jazz and swing have lots of diminished chords. A song like My Funny Valentine is full of them.

An augmented chord (A and B pedals with the F lever) is also symetrical like a diminished, but the intervals are two whole steps (four frets). So you get another inversion every 4 frets, and there are only four different augmented chords, each with three potential roots.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Actually, technically a diminished chord is three notes, for example E G Bb is Edim . The four note chord, for example E G Bb Db, is a diminished seventh chord. That's the chord that repeats every three frets. (Though for practical purposes, musicians generally refer to the dim7 as simply "diminished".) The three-note voicings with the F lever on the "common" grips are incomplete voicings of a dim7. If you add the 9th string or the 2nd string lowered 1/2 step (assuming the 9th is tuned to D and the 2nd is tuned to D#), you get the full dim7.

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Major 1 3 5
Minor 1 b3 5
Dim 1 b3 b5

Aug 1 3 #5

Diminished chords sound very anxious, like when this guy

enters the room.

John McGuire · From: Swansea,Illinois, USA

Sooooooo, to put this in perspective,
I play a G on fret 3 drop to 2 hit my F knee and I have a Gdim or I go to 6 or 9 still with my F lever and i still have a Gdim even though it my technically be incomplete.

Joey, i guess you have been around long enough to know that I WAS going to ask about aug next, but, thanks to Dave Dogget he spoiled it lol.

For the Aug if I am in C at fret 8 and drop to 4 or go to 12 with my ABF I am Playing a C Aug is this right?

After all of these years,,,, it can't be that simple.
Guys used to say someday,,,, it will just come to you. Gosh, i sure hope this is it lol Thanks a bunch.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

John, for Caug it's ABF at fret 3, 7, 11, 15, etc.

We'll never reveal how to get Demolished chords--you'll have to find those for yourself!
Smile

Papa Joe Pollick · From: Pontiac, Michigan, USA

For an aug. I like to use my B ped and half way on the A ped.Slippery way to get to the 4th.PJ Smile

David Doggett · Posted 11 Jul 2007 12:53 pm

Brint, I didn't realize that about the difference between a diminished and a diminished 7th. If that is true, then some of what I said is wrong. E G Bb could be called Edim or a rootless C7, but could not be called Gdim (which would be G Bb Db) or Bbdim (which would be Bb Db E). But Db E G Bb could be called Dbdim7, Edim7, Gdim7, or Bbdim7. Is that right? Or do you just always call it by the bottom note and forget about inversions?

Um...now, what the heck is a half diminished?

Papa Joe Pollick · From: Pontiac, Michigan, USA

Um...now, what the heck is a half diminished?

That would be my mind. Laughing

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

John, the easiest way to play an augmented chord is using your A & B pedals along with the E to F knee lever. An augmented is just a raised 5th in the chord so with your pedals down the 4th & 8th strings are the 5th note so you just add the E to F lever in there. If you're in open A at the 5th fret and you want an A augmented you can either go to the open A at the nut with ABF or you can stay where you are and drop back to the 4th fret and use ABF. What you're doing that way is is raising the 5th because you're sharpening the B string(s) with your A pedal and dropping back a fret but you have to retain the pitch of the 3rd, 4th, 6th, 8th strings so you add in the B pedal and F lever to bring them back to their previous pitch. With practice you can make this movement sound just like you were only raising the B string(s).

Still another way is with your E strings lowered to D# and playing out of the B6th mode. This requires a "G" knee lever which raises strings 1 & 7 F# to G. With the Es lowered the 4th and 8th strings are the 3rd(s), the 5th and 10th are the root(s) and the 1st and 7th strings are the 5ths so raising them a half tone with the lever gives you a nice augmented chord. Also, some players have a knee lever which raises the 1st string to G and lowers string 6 to F#. You can get a nice augment on strings 1, 2, & 5 using the G lever!........JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Just outside of Kingman, Az. U.S.A.

Brint,
I can demolish ANY chord!! Very Happy

Larry
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Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

John, don't get too deeply involved in technicalities in all this. You asked for a simple approach and we have given you enough to go with and grow on. In much of my playing I use a single note or two notes that fit over the chord and that is enough. It is not necessary to complete a chord, just make sure what you play fits. If the chord is G Diminished sometimes I might just play strings 5 and 6 on the 2nd fret, or 5th, 8th, or 11th frets and that is part of the chord and fits just fine. For an G Augment you can play the 5th and 6th string with A and B pedal engaged on the 2nd, 6th, or 10th frets and while those are incomplete G Augment chords they will fit. It don't have to always be complicated.
Jerry

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

David Doggett wrote:

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Just outside of Kingman, Az. U.S.A.

Jerry H,
I raise my 1st a half, and drop my 6 a whole step off a knee lever. I've used that 1,2,5 for an aug before, but for some reason it seems to be a hard grip for me, maybe more practice, so I usually use ABF, works nicely.

Larry Very Happy

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Carter SD/10, 4&5 Hilton Pedal, Peavey Sessions 400, Peavey Renown 400, Home Grown Eff/Rack
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Max W. Thompson · From: Boerne, Texas, USA

A half diminished 7th chord would be C Eb Gb Bb. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-diminished_seventh_chord

I guess several of us answered that one at the same time.

John McGuire · From: Swansea,Illinois, USA

Thanks again everyone. Jerry, that is what I have been doing in the past just hitting 1 or 2 notes of the chord and getting by. That is exactly what i am going to do take this info and the minor chord info keep it in my seat and study. You know, play with myself, Lol oops I mean my guitar and myself, would hate for someone to take that the wrong way!