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Topic: slants vs scale length |
Jim Jasutis
From:
Tampa, Florida, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2005 4:31 pm |
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The two threads on anatomy of a slant and the baritone Weissenborn got me thinking.
I have been doing a lot of reading and study on how to get started. I have some material by Jerry Byrd, where he strongly recommends a short scale instrument. He says this is necessary to make all of the slants he uses possible. From geometry class they say that any two points determine a straight line. It would seem that two note slants could be made on any scale length, as long as the notes were within the length of the bar. Am I correct in assuming that he is actually talking about 3 note slants, when he says you need a short scale instrument to accomplish them?
I know that as a beginner I won't be worried about 3 note slants for quite a while, I was just currious. Thanks -- Jim |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2005 4:39 pm
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| The difference between a long scale and a short scale is only about one fret. How much harder is it to do a slant at the first fret, compared to the second fret? Not much I would guess. |
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Rick Alexander
From:
Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 17 Mar 2005 4:53 pm
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The ratio of string spacing to fret width is more accurate for 3 note slants on a 22 1/2" scale than it is on longer scales.
There are other variables - such as accuracy of bar placement, smoothness of vibrato and condition of strings . . |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2005 6:03 pm
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Oakley Hicks did an analysis between these three steels a few years back:
JB Frypan ... 22" scale
Ricky B6 .... 22.5" Scale
Sierra Laptop ... 24.25" scale
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/002364.html
Its all about the ratio of scale length to string spacing ...
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Aiello's House of Gauss
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 17 March 2005 at 06:12 PM.] |
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Andy Greatrix
From:
Edmonton Alberta
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Posted 17 Mar 2005 7:12 pm
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| How does the width between the strings factor into the equation? Is it better to have the spacing at the bridge and nut equal? Thanks in advance. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2005 7:45 pm
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The distance between the strings is just as important as the distance between the frets.
Think of it as a triangle ... where the distance between 2 frets is "a" and the distance between the 2 strings is "b". Your bar is the hypotenuse.
The angles are associated with the lengths of "a" and "b".
"Split slanting" ... is where the short scale and string spacing determine what is actually possible to do with the tip of a bar.
This is why JB used the short scale.
I also believe he designed the JB frypan to be a 22" scale ... so he could get 8 strings on it ... and still have the same geometry of his B7.
Andy ... heres a nice discussion on Equal spacing at the Nut and Bridge ...
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Aiello's House of Gauss
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 18 March 2005 at 05:15 AM.] |
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Jeff Au Hoy
From:
Honolulu, Hawai'i
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Posted 18 Mar 2005 12:42 am
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So i.e., to do JB stuff on a 26" scale, we need both proportionately wider string spacing and a proportionately bigger bar. I guess bigger hands wouldn't hurt either.
The amp can probably stay the same size, though. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2005 3:25 am
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Hee, hee ... 
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2005 4:57 am
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Seriously ...
Split slanting" is at the heart of this "issue" ... as far as JB's recommendations on scale length, string spacing and bar size.
Augmented "Split Slants"
E --- 5 ----- 9 ----- 13 ----- 17 ----
C --- 5 ----- 9 ----- 13 ----- 17 ----
A --- 4 ----- 8 ----- 12 ----- 16 ----
G ------------------------------------
E ------------------------------------
C ------------------------------------
F+ F+ F+ F+
Diminished "Split Slants"
E -------------------------------------------
C --- 5 ----- 8 ----- 11 ----- 14 ---- 17 ---
A --- 5 ----- 8 ----- 11 ----- 14 ---- 17 ---
G --- 4 ----- 7 ----- 10 ----- 13 ---- 16 ---
E -------------------------------------------
C -------------------------------------------
Fo Fo Fo Fo Fo
9th "Split Slants"
E ---5---
C ---5---
A -------
G ---4---
E -------
C -------
G9
Dom 7th "Split Slants"
E -----------------
C --- 7 ---- 10 ---
A --- 7 ---- 10 ---
G ---------- 9 ---
E --- 6 -----------
C -----------------
C7 C7
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Aiello's House of Gauss
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
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Jeff Au Hoy
From:
Honolulu, Hawai'i
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Posted 18 Mar 2005 5:07 am
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| Also, those chords he sometimes fudges in C6... like the reverse slant dom7th chord (3rd, root, and flat 7th on strings 2, 4, and 5 respectively) that conveniently resolves by straightening the bar. [This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 18 March 2005 at 05:09 AM.] |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Bill Blacklock
From:
Powell River, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 18 Mar 2005 8:54 am
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| I have a 30" scale on my baritone weissenborn and don't find #3 note slants a problem at all. I think its what your used to. I've always played a longer scaled instrument and to be honest I find the scale length on my ricky T logo a little crowded. |
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Dave Giegerich
From:
Ellicott City, MD, R.I.P.
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Posted 18 Mar 2005 9:12 am
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On steel the frets are just a suggestion. Well, that's my excuse for shaky intonation anyway.
Dave |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 19 Mar 2005 12:20 am
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Dave;
You just missed being 100% correct by “Only ‘That’ Much”! 
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“Big John” Bechtel
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 19 Mar 2005 1:29 am
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My present lapsteel here is 19.75 " scale.
Like a strat for midgets.
But fits in the back pack ok.
Tuned at the moment L-H, E F# A C# E G
Thinking an A7 /A6 / F#m7b9.
Bluesy and versatile so far.
I will entertain any tuning suggestions.
It does have some slants, but still getting used to this scale... VERY short. |
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Bill Brummett
From:
Greensburg, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2005 7:59 pm
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There's always trade off's.
I have a 26" Stringmaster T8. In spite of being a 3 necker, it is fairly narrow. this means the strings are very close together.
Combined with the long scale,this can make some of the slants very "trying". The plus side is the margin of error on harmonics is much greater and you get much better harmonic sustain on harmonic slides.
Moving to my 22" Fender Dual Prof 8 takes a little adjustment as the shorter scale is combined with VERY wide string spacing.
Sometimes I just give up and spend most of the time on my D 10 pedal steel with the 24" scale, even using it for a lot of non-pedal stuff. Although it sometimes draws strange looks from folks seeing all the slants and very little pedal pushing. |
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