to my Christian steel playing friends...

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

David,

I am not a bible or historical scholar. My faith came from sincere prayer and Jesus touching my heart. So I can't speak of anything you bring up.

I adhere to the last words of a very old but once very popular hymn; sung in many churches of days gone by.

"You ask me how I know he lives? He lives within my heart."

I shall espouse Jesus Christ as Savior wherever I go; or whatever I do. Even to the point of a sword. As to this forum. b0b will have to ban me to keep me from my "witness" on this forum in the manner I do it.

This same scenario would apply to any employment or any endeavor I find myself in; regardless of man-made rules and/or laws. However, I will abide any rule or law that does not counter God's commandments. And the last commandment Jesus gave before ascending unto heaven (after he arose from the dead) was,

"Go ye unto Judea, Sumaria and to the utter most parts of the world, preaching the gospel".

That includes this forum.

Jesus also said, "you will be mocked, cursed and spat upon for my namesake".

I feel honored and humbled to be in that group.

May HE richly bless you all,

carl

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

As somebody who is not a Christian, and a liberal democrat, I want to say I do NOT find this thread offensive in any way. I CHOSE to read it. It was not imposed on me.

We liberals don't want to seperate the church from everythinng, we only want it kept out of the government. The reason is that government has the right to enact laws and impose it's will on people. We in America are fortunate in that there has been very little abuse of that, but historically, and in other parts of the world, many unjust and unfair laws have been passed to insure that those in power retain that power, and this has often included those who have attained power through their religion.

When that happens, persucution of religious minorities always follows. Look at Pakistan today where it is is not just illegal to attempt to convert a Musilm to Christianity, it is a death penalty offence.

If a law was passed saying I HAD to read this thread, I'd object to that law. But I still would not object the the thread itself.

This forum is not part of the government, and therefore Bob and the others who have expressed their beliefs here have every right to do so. And I will defend that right against anybody who would try to take it away. Whether or not I share those beliefs is irrelevant.

It's like Voltaire said.

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

First I was drawn to playing bars and clubs when I was a teenager because it represented fun,girls,razzmatazz,a place where I could be the center of attention and there was something "grownup" about it. By my late twenties,it had become drudgery but I had progressed to a higher level of bands and musicianship so I hung in there.And there has been variations on those themes plus a few tastes of fame and high paying gigs and interesting travel opportunities here and there ever since. Now - in my mid 50s I play with a very musically informed band of family oriented guys that have all their demons behind them. So in the end,it's focusing on the music and a great band that's kept me working and enjoying it. And I enjoy the travel with my family's blessing - as long as I'm bringing home the bucks. The other thing that has changed is my view of the folks that dwell in the places I play - the club regulars. One could rationalize and say they must be losers to spend so much time in a bar but that's not for me to judge. Whatever reason they choose to be there,they eventually form a circle of friends and it becomes maybe the only support system they have. However lame and sad this seems,I find there are always some real nice folks and because I work there so much,they become familiar faces and some become friends of mine as well.If you want to relate it to Jesus' ministry(I ain't him BTW),you'll notice he hung out with the dregs of society - not in church - so working among them is not the same thing as being of them. Now if my musical career had bottomed out and I was discouraged with my playing and/or the availability of good players in my area and stuff like that - THAT would make me consider hanging it up. But let's face it - if you play professionally,you're gonna be in a bar - a fancy bar maybe but still a bar. And I've known gospel groups and choirs that travel from church to church and believe me there's just as much temptation in that scene. -MJ-

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

Bob C , and all steelin Christians on this forum, I'm not sure if ya'll know or not, but there is a Christian Steel Guitar Forum, that I, and several other steel players here, are members of. If ya'll have the URL we would love to have all of you to come join in. there is a forum there for talkin about God, the Bible, and anything else that relates to christanity. if you don't have the URL I'd be glad to e-mail it to you.

Terry

Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

Mike Perlowin, that was a way cool post

Regarding the topic at hand, I know some fellow Christian musicians who consider bar gigs and other party-esque or "worldly" gigs (called "casuals") as opportunities to share the light with those who might be looking for it. I guess some are called to that sort of thing and others aren't, though.

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Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?

Walter Hamlin · From: Talladega, Alabama, USA

AMEN: Bob Carlucci, Bill Hatcher, Rich McDuffie, Carl Dixon.
Bob I am glad things turned out the way they did for you I think you did the absolute right thing by not playing in clubs.
For those who say, in certain words, that there are no absolutes in right and wrong need to wake up and read the Scriptures. Sure there are absolutes. For those who like to use "work it out yourself" as a crutch to do whatever you want to do, I say hogwash, thats not an appropriate exegesis of that verse. Read Phl. 2: 12-15 slowly and carefully.
All we have to do is live by it. For those who don't think it is wrong receiving pay or pleasure playing in a place where fornication, adultery, and drunkedness is rampant need read, read Romans 1:21-32 and especially the last verse.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Mike P.

Good to see you in this discussion. I met you when you played here in Atlanta and enjoyed it.

Your statement about keeping the Church out of the Gov. is interesting. See the original thought of Washington and the other Framers was to keep the government from instituting a NATIONAL religion as had been done in England. The thought was never to keep the Judeo/Christian principals out of the gov. or never to let them be utilized or spoken of or influential in everyday biz. Our laws and our country are founded on these principals. Now the liberals, ESPECIALLY the liberal Democrats want to sanitize any reference to God from anything having to do with the US Gov. which in essence gives you a Gov. of belief in NO God which is much more dangerous than at least recognizing that our fundamentals are God based.

In as much as the Pakistan thing, well you see the result of a people in total religous bondage to a religion of hate founded by a murderer, a pedaphile, a whoremonger who had all his so called revelations written down by a Satanist. Read a little about the Muslims and their leader and then read about Jesus and then all the problems in the middle east will make more sense. These people are acting on a belief that no non Muslims are to be tolerated in what they think is their land and the biggest culprit to them is Isreal. There will never be any peace with any of these Muslims. Get used to it.

In Islam--you belive/convert or you die. You try to convert to some other religion---you die. To even remotly think that the US Gov would try to force everyone to become a Christian and shoot you if you don't or try to convert to another religion is just far fetched at best.

My 02.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

It's not about playing steel anymore. When a topic turns into liberals vs. conservatives, it gets closed. Sorry folks, but we've been there, done that and it's always been nasty in the end.

Tom Olson · From: Spokane, WA

Bill H. -- we are definitely on the same wavelength. I was going to post something, then saw your post and realized you've said all I wanted to say on the subject.

However, I would like to emphasize something you've said, Bill. Whomever reads this, please keep Bill's words above in mind whenever you hear the phrase "separation of church and state" in regard to the US Constitution. Specifically, bear in mind the historical events surrounding the writing of the Constitution. The US was born from England and England had a State Church. The reason many of the colonists came to America was to be able to practice Christianity in their own way. Most importantly, bear in mind that our system of laws is not only based on English law which is based on Judeo-Christian principles, but it is derived DIRECTLY from those principles.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I closed it, then re-read and re-opened it because there's a lot of good stuff here. PLEASE, folks, this topic isn't about liberals, conservatives or government. It's about Christians playing steel in bars - a very valid topic that many of us struggle with. Let's not dilute that with off-topic political statements.

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Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
System Administrator

Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

The subject of this thread presents an interesting and enigmatic challenge. I remember being recruited to be the sound man at a performance of a Christian singer/songwriter at the Mabuhay Gardens in San Fransisco in the mid-80's. The place was right acoss the street from strip joints complete with barkers and all. I was pretty uncomfortable. But the whole reason for the performance was so some light could be shone into the shadows, so to speak. The club owner was (surprisingly) enthused about the whole prospect, as I recall, and went on to host a few more similar shows. It seems the place closed down not too much longer after that. More on the Mabuhay Gardens here:
http://www.angelfire.com/oh/liveperformances/Mabuhay.html

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I'm glad that I get to experience some great Christian musicians at bars. It would be a shame to hide the joy and love that Jesus pours through some players. Take Roy Buchanan playing the Messiah or a Campbell Bros gig. When I was a kid church was where phoney adults gossiped and worried and had some guy with a mike get on there case for an hour or so before he hit them up for some cash.
I got my first real message from Jesus from musicians opening up and letting the joy out.

Bob

Bill, I used to play Mabuhay all the time back in 77. Big fun ! I loved those days. And if those light weight tourist clubs across the street made you uncomfortable you gotta get out more

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

Good Thread Bob C

i am not at all offended by this thread and i'm glad to see it has'nt been closed.
i agree w: the likes of Rick Mc D,John M, Carl D, Mike P, Tiny O, Bill H, Micheal J,and Bob H.
i'm sure that if Jesus was a musician, he'd be playing for those in need and that would mean He'd be giggin'in all kinds of places.
i've often felt like the reluctant Messiah and i have learned to share my heart and knowledge.
if i can help my fellow man on his way, i'll do just that. i'm no judge, just another sinner like the rest.
i try to play where ever and whenever i can.
it's just up to me not to fall into temptation and be corrupted or soiled
from my Baptist GrandMa' who taught me what God Fearing was, to the black families i shared times of my youth with and who taught me what God Loving was, i chose the latter.
Thank God for giving us a Life and thus giving us the chance to save our souls.
it's even better w: the gift of Musik
let's share it

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

b0b, good call, this is still a discusion and not a condemnation of others faiths and philosophies in a vicious cycle.
I am also glad it is still open.

I would prefer it cycle back to closer to Bob C's original topic though. Of which I had posed a relavant question or two ; both socialogicly and historically

As too Church and State, one of my ancestors, Roger Williams, founded Rhode Island because he found the Massachusetts puritan's goverment too strict in it's control of what you believed. And they did stone people at that time.
So you can never say, it can't happen here in the Ole USA, because it has already. Ah the irony.
This is not meant as a raproache, just an observation and I hope it doesn't start another side track....please.

Back to Bob C's thread... hopefully.

He has stated that he has read signs, in answer to questions in his prayers, that he should not continue playing in non-Christian venues, even if it means a very difficult time or a trial for his familly.

But are there not also equaliy valid scriptures that might be interpreted to continue making his living UNTIL the Lord provides a way to maintain his family properly, in some other manner?

Perhaps there is a reason he/we don't see for the Lord wanting him out there still?

He has said he is now looking for ANY job to take up the slack from not gigging anymore, including a possible separation from his familly to make ends meet...

Now as I see it, if the Lord intended him to move on, he would have not just let the band fall apart or provide something that might be interpreted as an answer to his prayers,

but actually have the way to move forward arrive as the sign.

Rather than just stop and wait till it happens. Some could argue that it is a trial of his faith, surely, but is it absolutely a nessesary trial of his faith at this time...
He seems to feel this is so.

I am not arguing for a return to the ways of mamon, or a crisis of faith from exposure to bad influences.
His faith I would judge is more than strong enough to resist temptation. And also his witnessing might help one soul in the material world at the same time.

I am just saying that there is likely scripture that says ;
take the best care of your famillial responsabilities,
and while doing that the lord will eventually provide the alternative. In his own time.

ie Bob has a God given talent that has been putting food on the table and clothes on his children,
and he has decided, because of the actions of others in the typical playing environment,
to not use his talents in these less Christian environments.
For me it isn't just Bob, and his crisis of personal faith, who is affected by this situation.

Is it neccesary to suffer to prove on has faith, or is it enough to have faith for the times when you can't avoid suffering?

The Lord HAS provided work for him...
maybe the environment of that work IS the trial of his faith,
and not the avoidance of it and concurrent times of penury.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 15 April 2004 at 04:26 AM.]

Matt Dawson · From: Luxembourg, Europe

Interesting topic. I take offense at proselytizing by any religion in a music forum, but this thread is certainly not that. It started by greeting other christians and goes on to discuss the ethical problems of working places where people get drunk. As an alcoholic I find this thread very relevant, in fact it is discussions such as this (with other alcoholic musicians) that have helped me stay sober for 15 years. I would not expect a thread entitled 'to my alcoholic steel playing friends' to offend anyone. Why should this?
Matt

Savell · From: Lakeland FL

Compare to this...

A man has been called to share the gospel to all the world. His eyes are set on a foreign land that wants nothing to do with Christianity. His church sends him anyway knowing that he will not be permitted into the country as a missionary. They obtain all permissions, passports, and visas on the basis that he is a common business man. Once in the country, he finds ways to preach the gospel and get accepted by few while at the same time successfully doing the business that holds a eagerness in his heart. He has done the job.

The only thing is that when he gets to the Judgment Seat of Christ (Bema Seat). His all knowing Judge looks him in the eyes and says "You went not to the foreign land because you wanted to save souls, but you went because you liked the land and the exposure it offered you before your peers. Your deeds are cast into the fire and consumed to a mere small hunk of ashes."

The experience, the exposure, or the eternal?
Only you know how to sort the passions within yourself.

Darrell Klein · From: Spokane, Washington, USA

I am the guy who owned a night club. Check it out. Coeur d' Alene, Idaho. I will not condemn or judge anybody who chooses to play
their music in the clubs and bars. However,
I myself choose not to. My decision!!!
I lost my oldest son Darrell Jr.,killed as a result
of my owning a night club. My second to the oldest was shot in the arm in the same night
club. I had three sons. Darrell Jr. Michael,
and Tim. My band was named "MY THREE SONS".
I owned the night club where these boys of
my own played country music. None of us play
in clubs anymore, our choosing!!!!
People have questioned my salvation.
I believe!! Its a matter of history, as was
George Washington, the President of these
United States. I didn't know him, but I know he was who he was because of history.
When I gave my heart to Jesus Christ, there was no doubt I'm glad I know who Jesus Is!!AND,IT"S A MATTER OF HISTORY!!!
I still play steel guitar. I have been playing steel guitar 51 years. My wife is
involved in my Gospel Ministry, playing keyboard. " If you love me, you will obey my commandments". He said," Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with
all your mind and with all your strength".
and the second is this," Love your neighbor
as yourself". Yes, I love the Steel Guitar.
I play it with all my heart and soul. God
blessed me with this talent, and I will continue to use my Sho-Bud and My Zum to His
Glory. I now sing a song called "ZUM WHERE
MY LOVE". God bless you all and I mean this
from my heart and soul. Darrell Klein

Don McClellan · From: California/Thailand

A Christian musican friend of mine here in Hawaii asked me to read this article so I did. Its long but good. Don http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

[This message was edited by Don McClellan on 16 April 2004 at 03:00 PM.]

[This message was edited by Don McClellan on 16 April 2004 at 03:01 PM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Darrell you have had a tough row to hoe my friend.
I fully understand your decision.
I hope your faith keeps you going on.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Don... off topic and too political..
might get this thread closed... hhmm?

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Yeah, Don, that was way off topic.

Jeff Hogsten · From: Flatwoods Ky USA

I dont believe anyone is tring to cram anything down anyones throat or offend them. Why shouldnt the ones of us who are christians on here be able to talk about the faith we share and it has everything to do with playing, Ill gurantee you any christian on here will tell you they have been inspired to play better at times because of their relationship and experience with the Lord. It is so obvious when a post is about christianity all you have to do is not look at it or change the channel as they say in Tv
at least that is the excuse I hear to uphold all the garbage we see in movies tv and all the other things we dont like it is change the channel if you dont like it,well now it is time to practice what you preach

Jeff

Paul King · From: Gainesville, Texas, USA

I am a Christian and I do not play clubs. I do not drink and do not care to be around alcohol. However, if someone feels they can be a Christian and play clubs they have the right to do so. I feel that is between them and the Good Lord. I do not force my beliefs on anyone and I want the same from them. I sure am glad the Good Lord will be the judge in the end. I play in church and some disagree with that but it is just a matter of opinion. We all do not agree on these topics but I sure am happy I found this forum. I have always said this a great website.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Great replies my friends!. I have two more club dates and then am done for awhile. I have a few "outdoors" summer gigs that I'll be doing too,but I think I'll always feel like I'm being disobediant if I start regular gigs at bars again. I have NOT been bringing this before the Lord as I should be. I'll be honest here too... I have REAL trouble resisting the temptation at times... the Lord knows that.. I'm NOT as strong as some. Too many pretty faces out there. Part of me says"find new guys".. "keep it together" ""you need the money" "you LOVE playing"... another part ,a much quieter part says "its not Gods will for your life".. It will be tough on me for awhile.. I pray God will work this out. I am having a difficulty with this bob

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