to my Christian steel playing friends...

Savell · From: Lakeland FL

Donna,
Your points are very well made and certainly requires depth of thought prior to debate. As you can see here in this post many of us can find excellent examples to strengthen our expression of faith and convictions.

I believe that most involved in this post agree on one thing: The answer of whether or not to play in bars will only be found in one source... prayer.

Most have a relationship of some level of magnitude with our maker and Saviour (GOD/Christ)... contrary to popular belief very few have none. It is through prayers and the study of His word (BIBLE) that we find the will of God in our lives. Maybe there are some that He speaks to audibly, but I haven't been so lucky.

At some point within our relationship we are granted with a multitude of convictions that lead us in life's decision making. I confidently feel that we can only "speak of" our own (that is our witness) and should not hold others responsible according to it (that is a job Christ keeps for His own). As someone has already said we each have to discover our faith one on one with Him (Christ). We can bark commandments all day long to everyone we come in contact with and not have near the effect on a life like one whisper from the Holy Spirit in the moment of prayer. When one settles clearly in their mind that God is not pleased with their actions, they will not need the endorcement of mankind. If they continue to do so against their conviction, it is not the act that needs attention but rather the relationship itself. If they never feel a particular conviction, it for Christ to decide why or why not. However, this "leave to you and Him" attitude does not release us from our responsibility to witness as Christ has asked us to do for His glory.

I consider the statements in this post to be merely witnesses from those that have experienced the same or simular convictions (or not). Likewise my spirit has not been convinced that anyone is belittling the other. This displays the character and devotion to the brotherhood of the SGF community. I am proud for the privelage to partake of it's opportunities and sincerely hope that I have not offended anyone.

------------------
Savell Norsworthy
Fessenden SD10 / Nashville 400
Savell Ministries

[This message was edited by Savell on 30 April 2004 at 11:14 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Donna and Savell ; very well stated the both of you.

Having faith and witnessing can come in, or be given, in many different forms and manners, as might be observed in this thread.

The same could also be observed in the manner and timing of personel revalations God chooses for each believer in his journey.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I find it curious there were no other comments in relation to Donna's post.
In particular this question.

"Should a Christian physician only attend to patients of faith?"

Other than the doctors hypocratic oath, it does make a good point.

Why should a doctor not treat a muslum or taoist etc,
even if he/she is a devout Christian, big C?

And the florist issue also.
It could be construed by some that the florist is aiding and abetting a sin,
if they KNOW about the mistress, or even are told it is for the girlfriend, and not the wife.

Yet, how many expect the florist to refuse to sell to the man?

And there is also the possibility the man's wife is realy un-christian and vicious towards him,
and a real trial of Job for the poor fellow.
And he is waiting out a separation and eventual final split.

And the girlfriend is a very nice person,
who fell in love while helping out a good friend in need, through a bad time.
With every intention of making them an honest couple, if things worked out, when the dust settles.
But not the intention of steeling another womans husband. More of helping pick up a good man and friend, who was stomped on by a very foolish woman who was few persons friend.

So is it neccesarilly the florists position to assume they know enough about the situation
to make a moral judgement and refuse to sell flowers, created with their talent,
to a sinner...

I have seen this exact situation in real life.
The "other woman" and the man have been married now for 20+ years,
and created a fine family with nice kids too.

The ex-wife is in jail for a LONG time for something else. I feel sorry for her, but not as sorry as I felt for him while he was still trapped with her.

But the " other woman" as given a large ration of approbation publicly by a particular self rightious woman,
in my presense, and stood her ground.
There was no adultery involved while he was still married either,
it was just ASSUMED that adultery was going on.

Technically she might have been considered in the wrong, at the time,
but in actuallity she was doing the right thing for the right reasons and for the good of the man in question.

Sometimes what is best for people, isn't neccesarily the "right thing" at a time and place, but in the long run is the right choice and the more kindly and christainly chartitable thing to do.

So do we look at people in a club and assume we know their lives and motivations, their personal demons and how they are dealing with things in their lives and make a moral judgment on them?

I can't be around them they are bad people...

More food for thought. And we have eaten well in this thread.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 04 May 2004 at 12:06 AM.]

Mike McBride · From: Indiana

Can you name a business where the owners, employees and customers are non-sinners? I can't.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

It's not even germane to this issue, but physicians take the Hippocratic Oath, as stated by the Greek physician Hippocrates.

Many club owners and front men take the hypocritic oath, or at least follow it to the letter.

Getting back to seriousness, the Holy Spirit, when asked for direction, will show you the way. Do what your heart tells you to do. There's a lot of wisdom in there.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

I've only skimmed over this thread so forgive me if I'm raising a point already brought up.

I've been out of the bar scene for awhile now. I play in my church's worship band every Sunday, and lately I've had lots of coffee house shoes. I'm getting back into a couple cover bands, so I'll be back in the bars again. During my absence from the club scene, I experienced an intense illness and physical trauma. During this time, I found my salvation.

So here's the deal: I'm going to see a whole lotta people who I haven't seen in a long time. Last time many of these people saw me, I was not a Christian, so when they ask me what's been going on, I'll have plenty to tell them.

My pastor tells us that as Christians we stand out. We behave differently than the non-believers, and it is apparent. People may ask about our attitudes toward things and we have those opportunities to tell them why we believe what we believe.

My point is, as Christians, we have a chance to share our experience with others - others in desperate need. If one person at the bar inquires and listens to what I have to say about how Christ works in my life, then that is one more person who has heard the good news.

Isn't this exactly what we are supposed to do? Didn't God send his prophets, his Son, his disciples into places of great sin in an effort to make His Word known?

When I perform, I am showing people the gift that God has given me. People can ask about it, and I can tell them where it comes from. People can ask about me, and I can tell them I'm a Christian, and if they're interested enough to talk about it, I can tell them why. The bars will be a good opportunity to share how Christ works in my life. No, the bars are not a place to trumpet my beliefs over the PA, but in one-on-one conversation with people who are not beligerent, I can share something that may change their lives or at least give them pause.

[This message was edited by Chris Walke on 05 May 2004 at 10:14 AM.]

Ed Mooney · From: Evanston,IL

Most of the old timers here will recognize this. I think it illuminates the point that no matter where you are.....there you are.

DECK OF CARDS
Recorded By: Tex Ritter

Friends, This is Tex Ritter
with a strange story about a soldier boy
and a Deck Of Cards

During the North Africian Campaign
I group of solider boys had been on a long hke
and they arrived in a little town called Cassimo.

The next morning being Sunday, several of the boys
went to church. A Sergent commanded the boys in
church and after the padre had read the prayer, the text was taken up next.

Those of the boys who had a prayer book took it out but
this one boy only had a Deck Of Cards and so he spread
them out. The Sergant saw the cards and said
"Soldier put away those cards"

After the services were over the soldier was taken prisoner
and taken before the provos marshall. The marshall said to the
Sergant "Why have you brought this man here?"
"For playing cards in church sir"
"And what have you to say for yourself son?"
" Much sir", replied the solider
"I hope so,for if not, I will punish you more than any man
has been punished"

The soldier said......
"Sir, I have been on a march for about six days
and I had neither Bible or Prayer Book
but I hope to satisfy you sir, with the
purity of my intentions"

With That The Boy Started His Story........

"You see Sir,
When I look at the Ace, it reminds me there is but one God
And the deuce reminds me the Bible is split into two parts,
The Old and the New Testiment
And when I see the Three...
I think of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost
When I see the four
I think of the four evange;ists who preached the gospel
There was Matthew, Mark, Luke and John
And when I see the five
It reminds me of the five wise virgins
who trimmed the lamps, There were ten of them
Five were wise and were saved
Five were foolish and were shut out
And when I see the six
It reminds me that in six days God made this
great heaven and earth
When I see the seven
It reminds me that God rested from his great works
When I see the eight
I think of the eight rightous persons God saved
When he destoryed this earth
There was Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives
And when I see the nine
I think of the lepers our saviour cleansed
And nine of the ten didn't even thank him
When I see the ten
I think of the Ten Commandments
God handed down to Moses on a table of stone

When I see the King
It reminds me there is but one King of Heaven
God Almighty
And when I see the Queen
I think of the Blessed Virgin Mary
Who is Queen of Heaven
And the Jack or Knave is the Devil

When I count the number of spots on a deck of cards
I find there are 365, the number of days in a year
There are 52 cards...the number of weeks in a year
There are four suits...the number of weeks in a month
There are twelve picture cards...The number of months in a year
There's thirteen tricks.....The number of weeks in a quarter

So you see Sir,
My pack of cards serves me as...
A Bible, Almanac and Prayer Book"

Friends I know this story is true
Cause I knew that soldier

Ed Mooney, non-Christian, non-Jewish, non-Muslim, etc. ,just trying my best to be a decent human being until I die.

Greg Sullivan · From: Poughqaug New York

Mr Mooney

I hope you dont mind me correcting you. I have T.Texas Tylers original recording of
"Deck of Cards" it is one of my favorite all time classics. Your post reads,,and I quote.

Cause I knew that soldier ....Mr Mooney I know this seems that I am nit picking but I am not and hope you dont interperate as that
but the original record on Four Star Records
recorded by T.Texas Tyler ends with...

I know I was that soldier.

Thank You
Greg Sullivan

Ed Mooney · From: Evanston,IL

Thanks for correcting that Greg. I got my info from http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/Ranch/1790/D/DeckCards.htm
You might also find this of interest: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/playing-cards/deck-of-cards.html

Peace, Ed

Greg Sullivan · From: Poughqaug New York

Mr.Mooney

Thank you for the links. I read years back that the song Deck Of Cards was in fact composed by T.Texas Tyler while he was in WW
2. The story is that while Tyler was in the infantry he wrote that song.

As far as the lyrics by Tex Ritter quote "I Knew That Soldier" was true,because Ritter knew that soldier was Tyler.They were friends.

Thanks for understanding I meant not to take issue with you.

Peace to you as well.

Andy Alford · Posted 5 May 2004 5:27 pm

Who was it that kept the wine flowing when the people finished off alot of wine? ?Who was it that spent alot of time with the down and outers that needed what He had to offer?Jesus sure had alot of friends in low places.He came for those who needed him.

[This message was edited by Andy Alford on 06 May 2004 at 04:52 AM.]

[This message was edited by Andy Alford on 06 May 2004 at 04:54 AM.]

Mike McBride · From: Indiana

Proverbs 23:19-21 says "Hear thou, my son, and be wise, and guide thine heart in the way. 20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh: 21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags".

What about over-eating or what the Bible calls gluttony? It is an excess that can cause many maladies. The over-use of the fork has been the death of many, especially in our country where there is such an abundance of all kinds of food. (Thanks to Betty Miller [url=http://www.bible.com)]www.bible.com)[/url]

Shall we avoid gluttons as some would avoid drinkers?

I see folks whose bodies provide evidence of gluttony at work, at play and in my church all the time. Should we seperate ourselves from gluttons?

Before I worry about the "speck in my neighbor's eye", I try to remember that I am carrying a 15 pound "plank" around my waist. How about you?

Thank goodness for a loving God who provided us a Savior since all have fallen short.

[This message was edited by Mike McBride on 06 May 2004 at 02:55 AM.]

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

We should be "in" the world but not "of" the world. We are to be a "peculiar" people. I interprete that to mean, we should stand out from the crowd, to be set apart. If you associate with a bunch of guys for any length of time and they don't see for themselves that you are a Christian, you know something is wrong with the way you are living your life. Your life should be a witness to Christ living in you.
Erv

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

i've found this thread has beaten a record (IMHO) of religiously inclined topics.
it's duration is a blessing.
i'm moved by the respect and faith that has come forth from all here.
keep up the good cookin' and let us share this Soul Food

Gary Preston · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

All i can say is what if i was a drug dealer on the street corner and i told all of my customers that this is only medicine to help your nerves !!! Poison is still poison . Regardless where you use it . It seems to me that we need to use more energy to doing what we know is right than that which has so much controversy to it . Boy did i stick my neck out here ? But IMHO wrong is still wrong regardless where you do it at . G.P.

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

Not really following you Gary P. What's poison? Doing what where?

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

whoops...repeating myself.

[This message was edited by Chris Walke on 08 May 2004 at 08:03 AM.]

Jeff Hogsten · From: Flatwoods Ky USA

a lot of people seem to think the answer is to follow your heart, I remember some people in the bible that stood before the lord at the judgement and said lord lord have we not prophesied in your name and in thy name have cast out demons and in they name done many wonderful works and the lord said I never knew you depart from me you that work iniquity I never knew you, I wonder if that werent following their heart,they obviously though they knew the lord, the answer is right before when he tells us who will enter the kingdom, he that doeth the will of my father who is in heaven. So what is the will of the father, Paul said do whatever you do in word or deed do in the name of Jesus, I try to apply that rule, the last time I asked my myself the question about playing in a bar I thought can I do this in the name of Jesus, I couldnt however you have to decide for yourself,can you, some of country music today is nothing short of garbage and the majority of the people that play in bars play the modern songs the bottom line is it doesnt matter what you heart tells you if it doesnt line up with the word of God it is not right. Again I dont mean to be harsh, I think a lot of people are sincerly looking for a answers but I also think a lot of others are tring to make excuses.

JEff

Jeff Hogsten · From: Flatwoods Ky USA

I think I will make one more post on this subject and then lay it to rest as I think I have pretty will made my feeling on the subject known. I guess what Im about to share is very hard for me to talk about but it will sum up the way I feel. I told in another post about a friend I influenced to start playing in bars after being saved and how then going back and yeilding to the temptation of drinking again he went totaly back to the lifestyle he left. The truth is most of you that have a history of bars also have a history of getting into a lot of problems because of it, Im not saying everyone but I guearantee it is the majority, if you come out of a lifestyle that causes you great temptation you should avoid that lifestyle because more times than not it will drag you right back down. When you become a new creature you need new friends new places to go, you cant go back to the gutter and make it. I think it was bob that had a post about not working with women, he realized a temptaion and started avoiding it, that was wise. The story I want to tell is a very sad one. SOme years ago I got a phone call from a man that told me he played steel guitar and had just been saved in a local church and wanted to meet me. I went over and we became very good friends. FOr the next three years he was one of the most on fire christians Ive ever known . He started a gospel group had youth rallys and won dozens of people to God. However he loved country music so much he never quite got over the desire to go back in the bars. He yeilded to that temptation and after giving me a good many of the same excuses Ive read on here started playing again. Within six months he was worse in sin than ever. He was drinking in great excess, left his wife who was a wonderful women for another women and totally quit church. He told me so many people come up to him and said I though you were a christian what are you doing here. anyone ever hear that, Im afraid that is what most of the people you are tring to wittness to are really thinking no matter if they do try to be polite so not wanting to be a hypocrite he found himself in a terrible situation. One day he came by the store where I worked and wanted to go to lunch. We had a nice time and he took me back to work. As I was getting out of the car I called him by name and said, I dont want to preach at you but I want you to know if you ever want to or need to talk Im here. Ill never forget, he looked at me and said. You know I still love the lord and someday I have every intention of getting my life straightened out but right now Im having to much fun. He left and went on to play that night. The next morning I stoped by my mothers on the way to work and found that the night before a fight broke out where he was playing and he was shot in the head, dead before he hit the ground, His words have haunted me many nights, should I have said more should I have tried harder, maybe that is why I have said so much on this subject, make sure of what you are doing, dont put yourself in temptation, God will make a way if you are sincere, you never know when your time is over,

Jeff

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

A sad story for sure. But you can be shot most anywhere these days, for no reason whatsoever.
This is not meant to diminish this as a tragedy a bit.
And it is probably a higher chance of getting shot in a bar, but it's in the Piggly Wiggly parking lot. When your called your called, whereever you are.

It is good that he did acknowlege his love of the lord that day, one way or another.

Proverbs 23:20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:
21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty:
and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags".

I read that as meaning don't be counted amounst those who OVER-indulge in food or drink.
If you read it as don't be around drinkers, you must also read it as don't be around eaters...
Not possible. So I read it as either in moderation.

Sure there are those who should NEVER touch a drop, EVER,
and those who will live forever on diets.
But I won't avoid the fat people, because some just can't help that, even as they eat in moderation.
Ironically the steeler demographic dosn't run svelte either.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 08 May 2004 at 02:11 AM.]

Gary Preston · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

Poison is the ''sin '' that leads us in the way of destruction ! We can call it drugs, alcohol , Porn , anything that comes to our minds that is contrary to the will of God in our lives . We should seek Gods will in our christian walk instead of what motivates us ! You cant be a witness in the Devils playhouse . I'm not speaking out of turn here because i was in that playhouse and i saw what was going on there . I stood on the stage for 45 minutes out of each hour and looked around . Lets be honest with ourselves first then we can feel good about our lives and our relationship with God . I know it's fun to play music with friends but we can find friends that are church going that are great musicians also . I love all of you but i must state what is in my heart . Sometime we have to be firm to make our point . This is what i feel is right but if we all drove fords then there would'nt be any need for any car commercials on tv . God bless you all . G.P.

[This message was edited by Gary Preston on 08 May 2004 at 10:03 AM.]

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

"You cant be a witness in the Devils playhouse"

I'd say society in general is the devil's playhouse. And where else would one's testimony be most valuable? We cannot pretend that we can isolate ourselves from the masses of unbelievers or from the sins we reject that they embrace.

I'm stumped. I wonder what kind of bars you guys refer to. The places (bars, clubs, pubs) that I play are restaurants & music clubs, corner pubs. I see plenty of people who come in to listen to music, have dinner, socialize with friends. I see plenty of people who aren't corrupted by the place, its staff, or the behavior of other patrons there. I get this idea that some of you who object so strongly to playing in those establishments have this idea that you could not walk into these places without chasing a skirt, getting drunk, or cursing the name of the Father. That's utterly ridiculous. My mother, my aunts & uncles, my friends have all been able to abstain from drinking in these places, even though they've come to see me play scores of times. Never corrupted by the bar or its patrons.

The truth is, if one is a skirt-chaser, one will find skirts to chase even if no bars existed. One doesn't need a bar to find a drink. One doesn't require alcohol to take the Lord's name in vain.

The Lord gives us gifts and talents so that we may glorify Him, and also so we can provide for our families. Music is a source of income that my family needs. I don't get paid to play in church, nor could I accept any money for doing so. That is the time when I can use His gift in humble worship. To thank and glorify Him in my own imperfect way. But I do get paid to play in bars, restaurants, coffeehouses, weddings, and other parties. Should I not use the talents the Lord gave me to support my family?

Do you dine at establishments that sell wine & beer? Then you are supporting these venues that in your minds contribute to evil. Do you watch networks like ABC, NBC, CBS? Then you are supporting networks that run morally questionable programming...regardless of whether or not you watch those wicked programs.

What makes performing music in an establishment that serves alcohol so wicked? You are not there to provide the alcohol, you are there to play music. You can play a church picnic, and it would be easy for an alcoholic to sit and listen to the music while sneaking a sip out of a flask once in awhile. He doesn't need the bar to drink.

[This message was edited by Chris Walke on 08 May 2004 at 11:43 AM.]

[This message was edited by Chris Walke on 08 May 2004 at 11:46 AM.]

Miguel e Smith · From: Phoenix, AZ

>

[This message was edited by Miguel e Smith on 10 May 2004 at 10:19 AM.]

Gary Preston · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

What to say ,hmmm ? I'm glad that God is very understanding and loving . And his hand is reaching out to everyone regardless of ourselves . It's true that we have to be in this world but it's also very true that we do'nt have to be a partaker of it's worldly ways . It's also true that i love music as well as anyone else but i also have a day job . This gives me the freedom to make a joyful noise to the the lord ,which is also my choice . And i have raised my family with my day job . As everyone can see this subject can go on and on ,and there's nothing wrong with that but it will never end . This is the last time that i will address this issue . I plan on making heaven my eternal resting place and i hope everyone else will also . God bless you all . G.P.

Walter Hamlin · From: Talladega, Alabama, USA

You cannot justify sin by sin. It is all sin. A true born again Christian cannot justify playing in bars under any circumstance. This is my honest opinion.

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