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Topic: to my Christian steel playing friends... |
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 22 Apr 2004 4:22 pm |
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I'd like to comment on Joe Ace's post.
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| I could see where musicians could feel they are encouraging bad behavior by singing the praises of it. examples: "Swinging Doors", "I Think I'll Just Stay Here and Drink", "Friends in Low Places", etc. When you play these songs, are you encouraging their actions? |
Now as everybody knows, I am a liberal democrat, but I've played many gigs at conservative functions including Republican fund raisers. I've always taken the attitude that my job was to accompany the singer and make him or her sound as good as possible. Not to try to convert anybody to my way of thinking. Consequentrly I always kept my mouth shut and my thoughts to myself.
Nevertheless, there was a line I never crossed. That line was the song "The Fighting Side Of Me." The song advocates violence against people who engage in the legal and constitutionally protected right of public protest. Whenever the song was requested, I said I didn't know it. To this day, I have never played the song.
Now I don't want to get into a debate about liberal vs conservative politics or the right to dissent or protest here. I know many of you disagree with me. Let's all just "agree to disagree" and leave it at that.
My point is that I find that specific song offensive, and refuse to play it. Likewise, I think that those who are offended by songs that advocate or celebrate drinking have every right to refuse to play those songs.
Perhaps because I'm not a Christian, I don't have the necessary background to understand people's concern about this, but I see nothing wrong with the mere act of playing in a bar. Especially if you do as I did and refuse to play songs that you find offensive.
I also think that by playing in clubs, but staying sober and generally acting in a dignified manner that reflects your Christian values, you are setting an example for others, and although you may never know it, you may have a positive influence on somebody.
(edited for spelling)[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 23 April 2004 at 12:08 AM.] |
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Gary Preston
From:
Columbus, Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Apr 2004 7:17 pm
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| Come ye out and be ye seperate . Does this still ring in the ears of any christians anymore ? I'm not being mean but we ca'nt compromise our belief for the fun and money that these bar jobs bring . I also played in the clubs several years ago but in my honest openion I never saw anything there that was good for me or anyone else but the extra money !!! It will make your testimony very weak to do so .Jesus ''never'' told anyone that it's ok to play in the hogpen . It will wreck your family life . You will start looking on the other side of the fence ! Again this is only my observation and convictions . I never saw anything good in the smoke filled barrooms and i doubt that any bar owner is telling anyone ''come on in this will be good for you ''! Folks lets not straddle the fence . Our eternal soul means more to us than the little enjoyment you can get in the clubs ! I'm sorry if i offended anyone with my openion ,but we all have one . Right ? We can make a joyful noise for the Lord in his house cant we ? God bless you one and all . Regards,,,Gary . |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 22 Apr 2004 8:55 pm
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I was born 65 short years ago and as sure as those 65 years have come and gone if the worlds lasts that long another 65 years will pass and I dare say most of us sharing in this thread will be gone from this earth. This fact leads me to believe that nothing can be more important than seeking out the truth concerning any question that could have eternal implications. I don't think it is safe to trust someone else's opinions and I honestly don't have an answer to the question brought up by this thread for anyone other than myself. I know what is right for me and I urge everyone to seek out the truth for themselves. Very sober thought should be given to the subject.
Jerry |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 23 Apr 2004 4:43 am
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Jerry, a very good observation.
It is between each of us and the God we interact with in each of our particular traditions.
I have never in this thread tried to convert anyone to a different way of seeing it ..
because I can't; not saying that I want to try to.
But I am just presenting another way of looking at the problem,
as many others are also doing.
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| Those people are the ones that have caused the turmoil in my heart, mind and soul... Am I encouraging that sort of behaviour through my music??? .. It's a hard one to let go of.. you know???? bob |
Bob I really don't think you are, if what you are singing about is not exhalting sin and debauchery.
You are actually providing the main thing there that ISN"T a sin, good music and healthful exercise through dancing.
Those that will be hammered before 1st set will be whether you are there or not.
Will you not being there change them for the good... no.
Will a better music with a good message provide a positive outlet for thoes there? Surely yes.
There are songs that have the subject of drinking, and some are clearly saying go for it. So avoid those songs.
Others are a mirror on life, to point away from this problem, by showing an example to avoid.
But there are good clubs with nice people and there is no harm in that. Everyone needs a break and a night out.
There are cespool bars with horrible people and these would be avoided by any clear thinking person, Christian or not.
So I see the choices of where to play as that of any other choice,
a good place for good times or a bad place to be avoided.
To put a blanket prohibition on all clubs isn't fair to those in the majority who aren't causing the problem.
You can find trouble if your look for it, almost anywhere. A supermarket can have a drunken sot there too.
But just because there is trouble occasionaly in a certain place doesn't mean the place is bad per se. Just that one individual was bad at that time.
If you didn't buy them the drink or push them at a married woman,
it is NOT you condoning or abetting their behaviour.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 23 April 2004 at 05:46 AM.] |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 23 Apr 2004 5:16 am
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I remember once telling a fellow Steel player about this Forum. He quickly told me he can't participate for religious reasons.
He even quoted the Bible verse.
Can't argue with a man's beliefs.
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2004 6:29 am
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| I'm sure not here to preach but my pastor said something very interesting last Sunday. He said: A lot of people miss out on heaven by about 18 inches. That is the distance from our head to our heart. You can know about Jesus and what he teaches but if He isn't in your heart, you are just "sounding brass". You can pontificate all you want, but if your actions don't reflect your Christian beliefs, you just have Jesus in your head and not in your heart. |
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LARRY COLE
From:
LANCASTER, OHIO, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2004 9:06 am
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Is the driver of a get away car guilty of the crime?
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Playing For JESUS,LC. WILLIAMS U12,SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60,GIBSON LES PAUL CUSTOM,YAMAHA L-10A ACOUSTIC,ROLAND JW-50 KEYBOARD,G&L AND BC RICH BASS'S
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Rick McDuffie
From:
Benson, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2004 10:34 am
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I have a friend who is a nationally known musician. He was raised by devout Baptist people, but strayed away in his teenage years. As a middle-aged person, he had a faith-renewing experience with the Lord Jesus and made a commitment to begin expressing that newfound faith through his music at each of his shows. He has recorded some gospel music, but he makes his living playing his HITS at live shows. Not only does HE depend upon it for his livelihood, but the other people in his organization (and there are probably 2 dozen of them, or more) depend upon it, too. It's their work; it's what they do for a living, and how they provide for their families.
He plays a couple of gospel songs at all of his shows, and gives verbal testimony for "Jesus Christ, My Lord and Savior" (his exact words, usually).
The interesting thing about this is that the rowdies at his shows never complain about the gospel music and witness. They are probably like the man Jesus described who smote his chest and pled "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner." They know what they are, and most of them know that they really need a Savior, whether they've done anything about it yet or not.
My friend told me that the people he catches flak from are the smug Christians, who think that he should only play gospel songs in church now. They may be like the Pharisee who, in Jesus' story, prayed "I thank thee that I am not like this man." 
I often find amazing manifestations of grace outside the walls of the church. God give us eyes to see the Spirit working in all kinds of places...
If Christians withdraw completely from the world, what good are we? We ARE the salt of the earth, but we need to get out of the saltshaker and into the marketplace where we can do some good.[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 24 April 2004 at 07:32 AM.] |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 23 Apr 2004 4:46 pm
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Larry
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| Is the driver of a get away car guilty of the crime? |
Yes guilty as charged, no doubt whatsoever.
Same for the person who would let them stay in their barn to hide out knowing they have commited the crime. Or the fence who takes the stolen goods.
But NOT the person who stood by and saw it happen, but didn't get involved lest he or she be shot for interfering. Even if ideally that would have been the right thing to do.
But in practice very ill advised.
That would be risking the safety and well being of yourself and your family to do something you are not properly trained or prepared to do.
Nor the person who had them in their home, with NO KNOWLEGE of the crime. They may get hasseld by the law, but ultimately commited no crime.
So it is really not the same thing as an analogy.
If you play music in a club and people have 2 drinks, you are not helping them become drunks.They have free will and made the choice themselves.
They have also dealt with that choice in a reasonable manner.
And they are not becoming intoxicated boors and harming anyone.
If one person has 7 drinks and becomes rowdy,
they likely would have done that whether you were there or not.
Your music didn't make them start drinking, their poor choices
and lack of self control are to blame.
And those can stand as an object lesson for you not to do the same.
And some poor souls have a genetic inability to control alcohol consumption.
Those people should NEVER touch a drop.
I have a good friend in that catagory,
I do often pray for him to go permanently on the wagon.
When sober he is one of the finest musicians I have had the pleasure of playing with.
But he sometimes is the most miserable sot to be around.
Interestingly the orginal translation of the word Heresy was simply the word Choice.
Only later did it come to be associated with makeing a divergent religious choice,
punishable by shunning, banishment or death etc.
Rick as usual you make a good point.
You can't hide out from the world in the name of purity.
You can just be good yourself.
You can be your brothers keeper by leading to the light by example,
but not if you are not there to do it.
No other souls will be save by those who hide from those who need to be saved.
Jesus witnessed to sinners where they were, knowing they would likely not come to him.
Erv, your preacher was quite right. it's not where you go or who you are around, that in the end really matters.
But what is in your heart, that only you and God can see.
Any implication that you know the true heart of another, and find it wanting in your eyes, is surely off the mark in the eyes of God.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 23 April 2004 at 06:14 PM.] |
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Savell
From:
Lakeland FL
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Posted 23 Apr 2004 7:12 pm
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| But NOT the person who stood by and saw it happen, |
Most of us know that if you don't work the crowd, you probably won't get next weekend's gig.
If you don't play the drinking songs, the bar business decreases. If you don't play the rowdie songs, the rowdies don't dance and party, they go to another bar.
Most who have been or still are in the bands that get the work knows what we have to do to keep the job.
If you don't work the crowd you probably don't have enough people sinning in the building to feel convicted and/or your not making enough money to impact your lifestyle anyway.
We can't fool ourselves into thinking we are bystanders.
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Savell Norsworthy
Fessenden SD10 / Nashville 400
Savell Ministries [This message was edited by Savell on 23 April 2004 at 08:30 PM.] |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 24 Apr 2004 4:14 am
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Savel I looked at your web site, nicely done.
My only negative comment is that I had to put the text zoom to 150% to be able to read it. A minor point, but my poor eyes needed the extra size.
Your page on "The Truth About Hell", made me certainly not want a burial at sea over the Marianna trench.
Timothy 3:1-5,7 was also an interesting quote.
The last part ...."always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
But I don't see that you can't continue learning, AFTER you have come to the knowlege of truth.
I can't equate not walking up and wrestling a gun from someone during the course of an armed robber,
with talking to someone in a crowded club to "work the room". Being in the presence of a sinner doesn't make you a sinner automatically.
Other than that we are ALL sinners, even the saved.
Are there different levels of sinners?
Are not all sinners created equal?
Yes, there are greater sins, murder is not comparable to looking on a woman with lust for 3 seconds, before you say no that's wrong, and repent.
But from what I have read on some of your referenced quotations, and also in the Talmud, that sin is sin, period.
Some may strive mightily to sin less, and be unexposed to sin as much as possible.
This is good.
But does that make them a different level of sinner that other sinners?
In general I have always prefered classic Bluegrass to traditional country, most of the songs are morality tales, much like Easop's fables.
I see no reason why a band doing non-drinking songs, or songs that clearly say drink and you will have problems, as many bluegrass songs do would not work.
I have been really enjoying Alan Jackson's Best of, album. Yes there are a few drinking songs, but more bluegrass like morality tales.
These positive songs more than make up for the others.
I can't imagine that ALL clubs insist on your doing drinking and cheating songs.
They are interested in people up and dancing, and of course consuming liquids.
But line dancers rarely drink alcohol, but they consume plenty of beverages that are charged for at the bar.
Maybe the band would have fewer possible gigs, but any place that doesn't want a good band doing good uptempo music, but NOT extoling sinning,
is most likely not a place you need to work at anyway.
So maybe fewer gigs, in better places, but still working is a good solution.
I also note that there appear to be more than on "Reverend" posting on this thread, and they are also not in total agreement on all points.
Close but no cigar. (metaphorically)
My religious tradition does not enjoin you from talking to someone
who has had a glass of wine.
Not does it enjoin you from drinking wine in moderation.
Other stricter tradtions, clearly from this thread, oppose this strongly.
I suspect thre are a few of you here, who believe I am on the road to hell permanently, because my tradtion doesn't square fully with yours.
And since I have posted observations and comments that are divergent for some others here. In an effort to help, not harm, Bob C. with his problem.
But I do not believe my late parents are in hell, so I don't asume I will go there also.
You can not know what is in my heart. Only make supposition.
So if you may be imagining or assuming it is not correct enough to go to heaven,
by your estimation, you are likely wrong,
because you are man and not God. He will make the choice.
I am only arguing that there are ways for Bob C. to keep working and properly support his family, and still not be harming himself in the after life.
If he in his heart finds merit in these postulations.
With respect to all and your traditions as you see them, of course.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 24 April 2004 at 05:40 AM.] |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2004 5:33 pm
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Bob,
The following story may be of some interest to you and to other devout Christians.
My eldest daughter had risen the corporate ladder to a high paying job with much prestige. Eveything looked bright. She was in the banking business. She appeared to have it all.
Then the company decided to bring on board a dynamic economics guru who was going to make this bank the best in the business. And that he did. Which made my daughter's job even better from a salary standpoint.
Then it happened. This guru called a meeting, and directed that NO employee was allowed to say certain things to customers and one of them was "God bless you". Or any other reference to Jesus or Christianity in any manner.
This devastated my daughter. Her life was dedicated to Jesus. So she and I had some very deep and lengthy conversations. She had two small children and a husband who had a debilitating mental problem. The best he could get is menial labor.
So needless to say she was in the throws of mental agony. Well she decided to choose Jesus instead of give in to the "politcal correctness" baloney.
When God said, "I will not tax you beyond that which ye can stand", she proved that to be very true. He took her to the very doorway to hell on earth in the next 5 yrs. But she stood firm and her faith would not budge. It seems many of us have a JOB period in our lives.
Well there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow but it is not the gold that "foolsgold" seekers search for. The blessings that have befallen on that precious lady is unfathonable.
Not only did the lord richly bless her, but now many of the same banks she was associated with wait in line for her to come and speak to them and train their employees on how to improve customer relations. And she is now sought after all over the country.
It is a total 180. She is her own boss now. She answers ONLY to God. He is guiding her every step. And the monetary rewards are far more than she could ever have made at the bank she walked out on.
By the way, 2 yrs after she left, the bank almost went bankrupt and they fired the guru. But it was too late. Jesus had OTHER plans for her.
Again, "Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added unto you"
Praise his holy name,
carl |
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Walter Hamlin
From:
Talladega, Alabama, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2004 6:43 pm
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| Another great post Carl. |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 25 Apr 2004 4:09 am
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Yes Carl a great real life anecdote.
I am very happy for your daughter, and for you also.
Though excesive pride in oneself may be a sin, you are justly and rightful proud of your daughter. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2004 5:47 am
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Carl,
That's just the message I needed this Sunday morning! I hope the pastor's message is as inspiring as yours. You are truly blessed by the Lord to have a daughter like that. I'll bet that besides loving the Lord, she loves her daddy, too. Am I right? 
May the Lord bless you, Carl!
Erv[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 25 April 2004 at 06:48 AM.] |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2004 6:38 am
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| Geeez,I wish my kids were like that...I wish thier DAD were like that too... Very nice story .. If only all Christians were that strong...... bob |
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Jeff Hogsten
From:
Flatwoods Ky USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2004 7:59 pm
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I wonder how many people that play in bars would go to work tomorrow night if they thought the lord was going to come before the night was over.Now you can say that is absurd, I wouldnt go to work anywhere if I thought that but I mean not go because you wonder if the lord would take you out of a place like that. I wouldnt, I wouldnt be afraid to go if I worked at a bank, or a steel mill or ect. Again Im not judging anyone just tring to help and give you something to think about. A few years ago after only playing gospel music on the road for years I took a job a a local line dance club, we had from 700 to 1200 on thur through sat. It was as clean a place as you ever found with no trouble. Did I tell people I was a christian, yes, did I witness, yes, did I have a impact on people, yes, let me tell you about one friend I had an impact on. My friend after playing in bars for years was an alcoholic and he was saved delivered and lived a christian life for two years. He was laid off his job and needed work. When he saw me take this job he thought well if I could he could. Now I was raised in church and never had a drink in my life, so these things are no temptation to me. Does this make me better than people that have, no not at all, it however makes me better off in some instances and less likely to be tempted by some things.Know what happened to my friend, he couldnt take the temptation, in a few weeks he was right back where he had been. My liberty became his stumbling block, am I my brothers keeper, I think so. The night I heard this I went to work, as I sit looking out over the crowd I thought, if it wasnt for the sale of alcohol there would not be much of a crowd here, some of you will try and disagree but Im right, If you dont believe open a dry club. It has probably been done but not very often. The bottom line was as I looked over the crowd I thought I have the answer to the problems these people have instead I contributing to the problem. I feel I was hurting many more people than I helped. I turned in my notice that night and have never looked back. Please no one take offence as Im not critizing anyone. Rather I pray for those of you that are struggling with this issue and I am only telling you my experience that it may help someone. May God bless you and lead us all to the truth and keep his hand on us wherever we are and guide and protect each and every one of us
Jeff Hogsten |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2004 8:45 pm
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| Quote: |
| I wonder how many people that play in bars would go to work tomorrow night if they thought the lord was going to come before the night was over. |
I don't expect Jesus to pass over folks who happen to be in bars at that moment. Only He knows what is in their hearts.
I've been ashamed of many things I've done in my life, but precious few of my worst moments happened in bars. I played music in bars almost every weekend for about 20 years, so it wasn't for lack of exposure.
Still, if anyone is uncomfortable in that environment, if you feel that you are doing wrong just by being there, then you should stop. It's that simple. God talks to each of us in different ways, and has a different plan for each and every one of us. Live God's plan for your life.
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 25 Apr 2004 9:25 pm
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| . [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 09:16 PM.] |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2004 3:25 pm
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| You are indeed a fine group of gentlemen[and a few ladies!!!] .. This thread has been a blessing,and your thoughts and experiences have meant more to me than I can express properly. I am honored to be numbered among such a great group of folks. I truly hope to meet at least a few of you guys this fall in Connecticut... till then,thanks so much and God bless you all bob |
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Jeff Hogsten
From:
Flatwoods Ky USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2004 4:04 pm
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I think you put it a good way BOb, I wasnt impling that the Lord would pass over everyone in a bar just because they were there, it is what is in your heart, the bible does however speak about searing over your conscience and if you start to feel bad you need to get out. Im just throwing out food for thought, I am hearing a lot of that is the way I make a living so I have to do it and Im not sure if I agree with that, if we follow that line of thinking we could have chritian drug dealers or christian prostitues
or a christian maffia sooner or later you have to hit a point where somethings are wrong no matter what you think, where is that point I dont know where it is for you only you do, I guess what I want to say is just be honest withyour self and if you have any doubt about anything dont do it. I hope anything I say never offends anyone I would never want to do that or judge anyone, I just want us all to be a light and let it shine, you know where yours shines the best. God bless everyone
Jeff |
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Joe Miraglia
From:
Jamestown N.Y.
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Posted 26 Apr 2004 7:16 pm
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| Carl, If that was me I would-- AH-CHOO- And if the customer said,God Bless you, I would say thank you,but you must use a different bank. No one is permitted to use them words in this bank. Only if you are reading the back of a dollar bill. Joe |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 27 Apr 2004 3:03 am
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My Insight....
I don't currently attend church. Too many "church splits" in the past. I know, I shouldn't look to man... I know what's in my heart though. I recently turned down two offers to join bands(one rock,one blues) because I am uncomfortable in clubs these days. I guess what I am trying to say is that each Christian has to work out with God what is right for them in thier lives. I saw the comment about Christian drug dealers,prostitutes,etc... This is not to be taken lightly,but with much,much time spent in prayer.Case in point: I recently saw the Christian Contemporary Rock band STRYPER on a reunion tour. The concert was held at a secular venue. The owner closed down the Alkie sales because it was an All Ages Show. I don't think that this happened accidently. BTW, I have conversed with the band members many times,I can say without a doubt,they are the real deal.
Just my two copper slugs
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D.S. Rigsby
Carter Starter and various six string toys |
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Charles Curtis
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Posted 27 Apr 2004 1:12 pm
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| Have you thought about getting replacements and continuing? |
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Donna Dodd
From:
Acworth, Georgia, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2004 5:45 am
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WORK vs. TALENT:
Is a musician’s work viewed differently because it is his “talent”? Do we have a duty (as Believers) to only use that talent in specific ways?
If a floral designer knowingly uses her “talent or gift” to prepare a bouquet of flowers for a man’s mistress – it may be disturbing, but are we contributing to the lie?
Every place of business has its own demons – perhaps uses unclean tactics to get ahead of the pack – or maybe even slant a business story to bring themselves more credibility and show their competition in an unsavory light.
Should a Christian physician only attend to patients of faith?
I think we can make a case for most places of business having many of the same enticing demons as a club.
What is the goal of the business?
Isn't the "alcohol" of the workplace anything that may give you a false sense of what is rightfully yours?
What tactics are being used to take jobs away from the competition?
Could their dance have the same steps, but different format than that of a club?
What is the prize?
What is the cost?
Doesn’t greed give a person the same empty feeling when all is said and done?
I am blessed to work for a wonderful man and woman with a faith-based foundation in their marriage AND in their practice. Their vision is pure and simple - what an incredible approach to a service! Twenty years ago, I may not have had the wisdom to have sought after employment with this collective mindset in the workplace. Just some personal thoughts.
Be blessed.
Donna |
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