How I feel about buying and selling

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

I trust you you trust me, if I buy or sell lets ship and pay on the same day.
I have to many friends on the forum to mess up. It is not worth any amount of money to not pay or ship.
One post negitive about a deal would cost me to much it is not worth my trust to not do the right thing.
If I sell anything on this forum and you do not like it send it back in the same shape as shipped and you can get a refund.
I have bought and sold or traded and we all were happy, if not post here and it will be
corrected.
This is the way I think it should be done, if you do not think I will send the money pronto do not trade with me.

ernie

Ron Frederiksen · From: Van Buren, Arkansas, USA

I feel the same way. I have bought many Items on the Forum and for the most part most of the guys are fair,and then there are others who think its your fault they sold you something that was not up to par and you have to send it back to them. After you remind them 3 or 4 times they finally send the money back less what it cost to ship it plus the shipping you paid them is 3 times what it costs to send it back,and they still think you owe them that for their trouble. I just keep a list of them and run when they post something for sale. Its good to know that 99 and 1/2 of the guys are O-K and the others know who they are... Ron

"steelin is music to my ear"

Randy Gilliam · From: San Antonio, Texas, USA

Any one caught cheating a forum member will be Tarred and Feathered.

Jerry Erickson · From: Atlanta,IL 61723

They could be disbarred or is it de-barred.

Jim Saunders · From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A.

Ernest, I've bought and sold items on the Forum for over 5 years now and I've never been cheated or even disappointed. I've sold $5.00 items up to steels in the $3000. range. I think that in the case of the more expensive items, like an amp or a steel, the buyer and seller would have had several phone conversations before the sale is consumated, and, from that, you can judge the trustworthiness of each other. After all, the buyer who is asked to send a $3000 cashier's check in advance is himself pretty well exposed to loss too.
I was cheated out of a $100 for a small amp on Ebay, but never on the Forum.
But, after a couple of telephone converstions, I pretty well know who I'm dealing with and go accordingly.

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Mullen, Royal Precision, D10, Gibson Console Grande D8, Peavey Nashville 112, Peavey Nashville 400.

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

I am with Ernie all the way on this one. I have done over 100 battery-less mods and sent them out same day as the invoice, and I prefer to do that! It is easier, as I charge actual freight back. A lot of times it is less than the folks paid for freight incoming! Not one person has let me down on this Forum. I am mighty proud of my Forum friends! I know of no other community like this, we should all be pround of this Forum and the all the effort it takes Bob to keep this going.

Speaking of which, when an item sells, let Bob know and do the right thing, pay that fee! I pay a fee for every item I sell and repair here, if I do not and/or you do not we may not have a Forum someday. Bob has real costs and real personal time putting this on for us.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Jim
My experience was just the opposite. I've never had a bad experience after 140-something deals on eBay, but I've been royally screwed by two deals here with "forum brothers." Events which left me quite cynical about the concept of "forum brotherhood," BTW.

In one deal involving an instrument swap, the fellow asked for... and received from me... the assurance that if he wasn't happy in any way with the transaction, we would trade back. Well, when I received the guitar I got, I wasn't happy since I felt he misrepresented it. Funny thing, but he declined my offer to trade back, then whined about it to several people. None took him seriously, but that was the end of it.

I did tell him in no uncertain terms what I thought of his honesty, his double-standard, his business ethics, and as I recall, the way his momma raised him

. He hasn't shown up on the Forum since that time, incidentally.

I will say, however, that in the hundreds and hundreds of product sales I've made here on the Forum for my CDs and instructional materials, I've never received a bad check. So I consider that a pretty darn good record which speaks for the general level of integrity here on the Forum. It's just those few bad apples...

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 01 May 2005 at 08:47 AM.]

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

My respects, Ernest, for your values. But I am also unconvinced that there is an automatic high standard of human integrity inherent in and guaranteed by forum membership.
I will always insist, as a buyer, that the seller wait for a check to clear so as to avoid putting him on the spot. And I will expect a buyer to accept the same, the other way around. Good fences make good neighbors, or something.
I have had the occasion where a seller said don't worry and shipped immediately upon our closing the deal. I was extremely flattered and honored by the trust. (So I stiffed him. Just kidding.) But I will not expect that of anyone. Too often I think we believe that we truly know someone just because of an online relationship. Because far more people are good than not--I think and hope--a large majority of these trust-based deals go well. But in my opinion it is tempting fate to ignore basic practices of caution.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

My internet trading experience has been 100% success when dealing with Americans.

To the discredit of my fellow countrymen - my bad experiences have uniformly been with Canadians (excluding Forum transactions).

Canadians are well-known for their passive tolerance to pretty much anything. Latest political polls suggest that we are even comfortably tolerant with the Liberal Party government contract kickback scandal that's been headline news for the last six months.

As our former Prime Minister suggested - "Society has evolved"...into what I'm not sure.

Alan Kirk · From: Paso Robles, CA, USA

Let's take off the rose-colored glasses. Although most of my forum buy/sell experiences have been positive, there have been two hum-dingers (me buying) with some real sleazebags who failed to accurately describe their merchandise. There also are dishonest lurkers who respond off-Forum to "wanted to buy" ads and who are not above screwing neophytes. It would be nice if we were all good guys, but that just isn't the case. Let the buyer beware.

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[This message was edited by Alan Kirk on 01 May 2005 at 02:39 PM.]

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

I was just about to enter a topic similiar to this one, and I'm glad I always search the form for topics before i initiate a new one. I've got something on my concience that's been a little like a burr under a saddle for a long time.

I recently made a major boo boo by 'assuming' that in a first come, first serve sale, the first bid would appear on the forum thread that sold the item. Facts are, however, that emails are also traceable by time/date and I didn't bother to check my emails before I made the choice of a buyer for an amp i sold here. Turned out that Tim Harr had beaten the time posted on the Forum by an email time/dated by 5 minutes over the first bidder's forum post. I had to eat crow and sell the amp to Tim Harr, but I also found it necessary to notify the other buyer of my screw up. Crow feathers didn't really taste that bad, but it left me with the experience one should check both places before closing out the sale.

Lately, a newcomer to the forum sold a guitar, but not to the first person that bid the guitar. Then came an email explanation relative to why the sale didn't go to the first bidder. It was a total fabrication of the truth and I will not go into details, but I have personal knowledge the rationale given to the first bidder was a total fabrication of the truth. That stinks in my book. Also it will be a cold day in the hot place before I ever give that person the courtesy of any of my experiences. But he probably wouldn't care anyway. If you can't be honest in your business dealings, you have a problem that will never be solved by any individual who reads and posts on this super site. Just my take.
Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Jim Saunders · From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A.

Fred, I have been in that situation as a buyer. I made the mistake of responding on the Forum, but I was beaten out by an email response. If we don't have a rule on this, we probably should. And, email seems to be the logical answer. When you are measuring in minutes email does it for you.

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Mullen, Royal Precision, D10, Gibson Console Grande D8, Peavey Nashville 112, Peavey Nashville 400.

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

Jim i guess i agree with you to some extent, but if you look at every post on the forum theres a time--to the minute--and a date. I also think that policing, for lack of a better word, could get to be more than one could undertake without payment. I used the posted time of the forum vs. the time of the email to make my decision. I think the other bidder, to whom I had to explain, understood the problem and he was gracious enough to forgive my error. But for a seller to not be truthful about the transaction is just unforgiveable in my book.
Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I have to be REAL careful here, but I want to put my $.02 in .. I agree with our friend Herb. I have made two recent deals on this forum, that have been big losers for me.. Same with ebay the last steel I bought there.. HOWEVER, I have made VERY satisfactory deals in both places also.

I am slowly beginning to realize, You pay your money, you take yours chances... Thats why LOTS of people buy new stuff.. Fewer headaches, aggravation and disappointment... I find it funny.. Now I can't sell the stuff I bought here on this forum here, because I voiced my dipleasure. ... .. I don't know.. I think NO ONE here INTENDS to deliberately "beat" another forumite.. Maybe we just have different perception as to what is good, bad,old new etc... One guy will have something with several scratches, but scrathes don't faze him a bit.. looks right past them.. He sells the instrument, calling it "excellent cond".. He sells to a guy that sees every tiny scratch or pin prick. and the guy is flabbergasted at the deporable condition of his purchase... I have been on BOTH sides of the aforementioned scenario... Lately I am afraid to buy or sell anything anywhere on the net.... bob

[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 02 May 2005 at 05:50 AM.]

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

When there is an item for sale and you send your money you are asked to trust the other guy all the way, how about him trusting you, is that to much to ask.
Both parties shipping same day is mutual respect, if that is not right just keep your stuff.
that is my feelings.
I have shipped items for inspection and waited for the money, the check came yesterday, because it was as I posted.

ernie
If I did not live right laney and Donna would not hug me, nothing is worth losing that.

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

I agree with you comment, Mark.
I also prefer email. Non-members can not respond by posts.

As far as trusting Forum Members, remember it only costs $5 to become a member. There's no background check.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

???? So who were those guys in brown shoes and a SGF blazer who knocked on my door a coupla weeks ago? You mean they weren't legit?

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I think that most people want others to be satisifed in their dealings with them. But it takes skill to accurately communicate information about goods at a distance. The responsibility lies with both parties to reach a 'meeting of the minds'. Especially when dealing with complex, used items, a seller must truly and accurately disclose everything about an item, and the buyer must let the seller know what his/her issues are and carefully question the seller. If a seller objects to very detailed questions about an item, I generally make my own worst-case assumptions about it. Otherwise, I never assume anything about the condition of an item, unless they say 'mint'. That means showroom-new, perfect. Otherwise, I ask enough questions to get a clear picture of anything that causes it to be less than mint. If it's important to me, I ask the seller, and often make a checklist of things to ask. This doesn't guarantee satisfaction, but it at least reduces the likelihood of anybody thinking they've been mislead.

I realize that, on steel guitars, shipping cost can be a real problem, but if an item is sold for near true retail value, I think a 24-48 hour return privilege or 'guarantee of satisfaction' is appropriate. I don't know any serious vintage guitar dealers who won't do this on transactions-at-a-distance. They won't be in business very long if they don't keep their customers happy.

On the timing of shipping vs. receiving the cold hard cash, that's a difficult one. Both parties are vulnerable, the seller if the item is shipped before getting the cash, the buyer if the cash must be received before shipping the item. Unless using a broker (imo, highly recommended for very high $$ transactions with strangers), someone takes a risk. In that sense, the practice of both parties shipping at the same time makes sense - both share this risk. But this isn't absolute - one party may have a well-established reputation and pose less risk. In such a case, it makes more sense for the other party to take the smaller risk.

I've done a few forum tranactions, everything was 'textbook' perfect in my dealings. These folks are well-regarded forum members, and I would not hesitate to trust people like this implicitly. But if it is someone who is not so widely known and respected, I think discretion is appropriate. When dealing with a true stranger, it is reasonable to check up on them before sending them a postal money order for hundreds or thousands of dollars. I think this is just common sense, "Bidness is bidness".

On the 'who's first' discussion, is there truly a firm FCFS (first-come first-served) protocol? What if several offers for a heavy, bulky, hard-to-ship steel come in within a very short period, and the 2nd or 3rd offer is from somebody you know that can come get the steel, without any shipping hassle? Do we really argue that we're bound to the offer from across the country, but with the earliest time stamp? That doesn't seem reasonable. Also, this goes to the reputation issue I discussed earlier. Is it unreasonable to prefer to sell to someone with a known reputation? Now, I'm not talking about renegging on a deal already made - that is different. But it seems to me that there is some reasonable discretion in deciding which offer to take, if there are multiple concurrent offers. Each offer presents different advantages and disadvantages. Now, I completely agree with Fred that if you advertise FCFS, you're bound to it. I also agree that the seller should be up-front with everyone if FCFS is not followed. The key is always clear and honest communication - it's just a matter of respect for our forum brethren.

One other thing on the FCFS issue. A lot of email clients use the sender's computer clock to time-stamp emails. I noticed this the other day when my teaching assistant alerted me to the fact that I had accidentally set my system clock several days ahead, apparently when I looked at the calendar for the next month. In other words, I would trust the forum date stamp more than possibly spurious email stamps. At least the forum stamps will be self-consistent. As to the concern for non-forum-members, that doesn't bother me, since I would be reluctant to sell anything of substance via the forum to a non-member. That kind of bypasses the Nigerian scam-scum, eh?

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