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Topic: cabinet drop |
Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 22 Apr 2024 10:09 am |
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Well, it's not that tuners created cabinet drop... it's that tuning by ear has one automatically accounting for it and making the necessary adjustment so it's a non-issue. The drop is still technically occurring, but you don't notice because you tune certain critical pedal/knee changes against already-cab-dropped strings. Boom, those intervals are in tune even though certain strings have dropped in pitch.
And the Peterson sweeteners based on both versions of the Newman system (E's at +0 and +10) have already accounted for cabinet drop. This is handled by just how much sharper the Open E settings are vis-a-vis the pedals-down A chord. And they've set the entire Open E chord even a little sharper than that would require to make the cab-dropped 6th string work in the A-pedal minor chord (C#m). Otherwise, the 6th lands too flat. These systems assume the guitar has about 5 cents of drop on the 4th string when the pedals go down. Sounds good if your particular guitar is close to 4 or 5 cents of drop, but not so good for a guitar with little or no drop. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Apr 2024 10:09 am
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After learning the cabinet drop of my own instrument, I only ever really need to tune the open strings, unless I alter a change, or change string gauges. I usually check pedals and levers after a string change, and hardly ever have to adjust.
The beauty of a system like the one Larry Ball has developed, or like my friend Dave Ristrim taught me over the phone in about 30 seconds, is in the simplicity, reliability, and specificity to your own instrument.
What messes with tuning more than cabinet drop is Earth’s atmosphere. If there was an electronic device that could adjust tuning for temperature and humidity, I would be first in line.
As far as electronic tuner versus ear. I tune by ear in my own room on my own time. Then check it against the electronic method. It’s good practice. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 22 Apr 2024 9:58 pm
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| Ken Metcalf wrote: |
| Henry Matthews wrote: |
| Most people didn’t even know what cabinet drop was until electronic tuners came along. Don’t even worry about it, just tune and play. 😊 |
Seems fairly easy to hear the drop it if your ear is developed?
Especially on the A-F lever 6th string. |
Yes, you can hear it drop sitting in your music room with no noise. Science says most people can hear 3 cents or more. I know I can but doesn’t bother me when playing live or recording. I don’t think many of us can get our bar exactly on the money so that 3 cent drop is bothering you? With proper bar technique, you just have to play around that measly 3 cent drop and make it sound in tune. My Magnum has really no cabinet drop so I don’t worry about it but some people worry about that little digital tuner drop when they press the pedals. I’m not the greatest player for sure but I’ve never even worried about and I play in tune most of the time.😊
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2024 5:08 pm
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There 13 species of Maple native to the USA, There is over 100 species in the world, A some have been brought in and grow in our forests. Then considering where a maple tree grows, Amount of rain or moisture, sunlight, Length of growing season will change its cellular structure also. How the log is sawed will affect its strength and stability also.
Mechanical design and materials used in a guitar will also allow the guitar to detune strings, When pedals or knee levers are engaged.
When a guitar is built, There is 4 things that everyone wants to considered. Tone, Sustain, Tuning stability and weight.
A short time ago I was at a friends house, Who traded up or bought an Emmons steel, It has the tuning stabilizer on both necks. At 600.00 per neck when the guitar was built, They sure work as designed, But would sure flatten a persons wallet.
The Emmons system actually bends the Changer Cross shaft in the middle, When pedals are shoved down. It has like a 20 to 1 mechanical advantage on the changer shaft with adjustments under the guitar, So when pedals are engaged, The strings not pulled hold their tuning.
Then you play in a band with a keyboard, And the house voltage is high or low, You still cannot play open strings, And have to fudge the bar off the frets to stay in tune. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2024 7:15 am
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| Quote: |
| Science says most people can hear 3 cents or more... I don’t think many of us can get our bar exactly on the money so that 3 cent drop is bothering you? |
Very true.
One slightly-detuned string played by itself is not a problem. It's hard to get a read that it's even changed. But that's not really what we're talking about here.
The problem is when it's played in the context of an interval along with another string, or in a chord. Suddenly, you notice. And it can make the difference between beautiful and, well, ugly.
This is so easy to prove. Play strings 8 and 5. Now grab the 5th string tuning peg and tune it down 3 cents. Play that string alone. No problem, sounds about the same. But play the two strings together. Yowza! The only way out is a bar slant.
But, yeah, nobody may notice this in the chaos of a band. Still, I'm going to fight the good fight and at least start with intervals on the guitar tuned to take into account and 'fix' cab-dropped strings so the problem vanishes - similar to how ear-tuners handle this... or the Newman/Peterson system tries to deal with this (and sometimes fails, depending on the particular guitar, leading to posts on the Forum about cabinet drop issues that lots of others don't experience so think is a fake problem). And then I'll take that well-tuned guitar and mess everything up from there with questionable bar placement. |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2024 8:02 am
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Correct me if I am wrong.
When tuning with A&B pedals down you are really tuning strings to A 440 for a starting pitch on the 6th string.
Tuning Es with pedals up or open you would be tuning open notes to E for a starting pitch on the 8th string.
I tune my B6th or Es lowered to a root B note for Universal B6th.
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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes
Last edited by Ken Metcalf on 25 Apr 2024 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2024 8:19 am
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[quote="Tucker Jackson"]
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And then I'll take that well-tuned guitar and mess everything up from there with questionable bar placement. |
Hey, thats what I do! You too?
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Steve Mueller
From:
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2024 5:54 am
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I wholeheartedly agree with Tucker and Bob. Tune so there's as little dissonance as possible open and with pedals/knees. Then work on your intonation with the bar.
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2016 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2015 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2023 Williams S12 4 x 5, Milkman Amps, 1974 Gibson Byrdland |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2024 8:43 am
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| Ken Metcalf wrote: |
Correct me if I am wrong.
When tuning with A&B pedals down you are really tuning open strings to A 440 for a starting pitch on the 6th string.
Tuning Es with pedals up or open you would be tuning open notes to E for a starting pitch on the 8th string.
I tune my B6th or Es lowered to a root B note for Universal B6th. |
Just clarify what I think you are saying here-
Tuning with AB pedals down is about tuning the open E strings to straight-up 0. As long as strings 10-6-5-3 are not drastically out of tune, the cabinet drop effect should be sufficient for tuning the E’s.
Unless you have a pull/release changer, I would definitely not tune any pulls before all the strings are tuned open.
After the open E’s are tuned, release the pedals and follow a reliable ear-tuning process. According to my un-scientific analysis, tuning all beats out is neither possible nor desirable, which means tuning by ear or electronic device involves compromise. All octaves can be tuned perfectly, 5ths maybe close to perfect, and major 3rds are all flat.
After everything sounds good to your ear, get an electronic tuner, get a reading for every string and every change, and write out all the results on a sensible copedent chart so you have something to refer to when tuning by ear is not possible or courteous. If all goes well, after a few times you won’t need the chart anymore.
PS- when cabinet drop tuning, I only use the B pedal. This was the best tuning advice I was ever given. I can tune all open strings to 0 except 11, 5, 3, and 2 with B pedal down. After releasing, I just give those 3rds the -4 treatment. This method seems to have nearly all the compromise built in. Tuning the pulls is simplified too. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 25 Apr 2024 12:52 pm
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Sounds about right Fred.
I think what Ken was referring to - if I understand- was more the chordal context, so to speak, of the tuning steps.
A+B down is creating an A major environment, where A is the centre tone.
Conversely, with Es/Bs open, pedals up, you are tuning in an E major context.
And Es lowered would create a B/B6 tuning context...
The tuning environment for the E major (and B major) realm is a few cents sharper overall than the pedals down realm of A/A6.
I think this is what potentially creates stress and frustration when tuning by ear.
The 'centre' of the E maj tuning realm is a bit higher pitched. So when A&B go down, the ear has to adjust to the slightly lower tuning realm. |
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Norbert Dengler
From:
germany
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Posted 26 Apr 2024 11:32 pm
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[quote] Marty Broussard
The 4th string drop:
Utilizing your Peterson tuner establish how much it flattens with the AB pedal combined. Then globally set your Peterson sharp by that many cents. Then utilize the SE9 tuning regimen and see how the guitar performs.
what Marty said, i tried many things, just find out how much your guitar drops (in my case 2 cents) add that on your Peterson (in my case about 440,6 hertz) use the OE9 tuning and propably some minor adjustments here and there and you should be done. |
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