Wiliams 400 U-12 - ex BJ Cole

Christopher Hillman · From: Manchester, UK

Hey all,

I have just acquired a new (to me) Williams 400 U-12. This was once owned by BJ Cole and still set up how he had it. I've not asked BJ if this was made specially for him yet but maybe someone on here knows some info on it? It's stamped "438" under the headstock. I'm guessing its a late 90s model maybe from other photos online?

Here are some photos

I'm thinking of swapping the E levers from the left knee over to the right knee like my Excel U-12. Any advice for doing this your self? I always find setting them up is a bit of a nightmare getting them to pull together (i did on my sho bud anyway) is there a correct procedure for setting up to E pulls from scratch? Looks like there are enough Rods underneath to put it back to standard.

Another thing which is becoming a pain is the 6th string appears to keep going out of tune when using the B pedal. I cant tell yet if both the open string and the B pedal are going out of tune or it just up the open string.
The 6th string (B pedal down) seems quite out of tune with the open E string. I'm finding myself in a bit of a tuning circle between open string, Pedal down, playing it for a bit then it seems a bit off. I'm not sure if the Excel is just better with its cabinet drop than the Williams or if there is a problem?

Anthony Campbell · From: Northwest Indiana, USA

I'd start with checking if the string tie-down is possibly failing/slipping? Maybe try swapping it with a string that doesn't have that problem and see if the problem ends up migrating.

Then of course try lubricating the whole thing as needed with some tri-flow if it hasn't already. It does look like it has been well-used in its current state.

I'd ask BJ of its history on instagram - he seems reasonably active on there!
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Christopher Hillman · From: Manchester, UK

Anthony Campbell · From: Northwest Indiana, USA

https://www.gregcutshaw.com/Williams%2012%20String%20Keyless/51t.jpg
Stole this from Greg Cutshaw.

The Top-Hat Screws that hold the strings down. I'm wondering if this is causing that string to slip. Might not be seating/gripping properly?
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Williams Keyless D10
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Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

If all the knee levers work and tune up proper, Take pictures, And make a drawing with each string, Write down The String Number, Changer Hole and Bell Crank hole the rod is installed in. Remove the Plastic Tuning Nut, Disconnect the rod from the Bell Crank. Remove the pull rods, Align the Bell Cranks on the Cross Shafts with the new Changer Holes. Then take the proper length rod for each pull and install in proper hole in Changer and Bell Crank, (Make sure the rod is aligned from Bell Crank to Changer Fingers, Not dragging on other rods or Bell Cranks.) Install clip on rod at bell crank, And install tuning nut. (Work 1 rod at a time making sure it works, Then go to the next rod.) Then check tuning on pulls.

**********************String Problem***********************

I suggest you get in contact with Williams. In respect to the way the strings should be wound around the Top Hat Grub Screw, That locks the string to the tuner block.
I found a picture of another Williams guitar that has the strings wound clockwise around the grub screw.
In the picture you posted the strings are wound counter clockwise, And very little contact with screw. As the Grub Screw is tightened the string wants to move under the screw.

I have a GFI keyless S12 in their directions they instruct to wind clock wise as well. I wind the string in a U around the grub screw for more bearing surface under the screw. Had no problem with string slippage.

Good Luck in changing knee levers, And curing string problem. Happy Steelin.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Here is a link to the manual for Williams guitars, which may come in handy.

https://www.williamsguitarcompany.com/manual.html

When installing a string, run it through the little guide hole and then past the "top hat" on the side closest to you when seated behind the guitar. Pull the string snug and then wrap it clockwise a quarter of the way around the "top hat". The end of the string will now be pointed forward, away from you. Hold it in place and tighten down the "top hat". As you tighten down the "top hat", it will have a tendency to further tighten the tension on the string. The string does not have to be wrapped completely around the "top hat". A quarter of a wrap is all that is needed.

As Bobby pointed out, the strings are wrapped counterclockwise in the photo you posted.

On my Single 10, after tightening down the "top hat", I bring the string up to pitch, and then just wiggle the end of the string back and forth a few times until the excess length breaks off. No need to cut them. On a 12 string guitar, you may have to cut the ends off of the large wound strings.
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Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

You mentioned that you find yourself in a bit of a "tuning circle".

Be sure to study Jon Light's post on overtuning:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=326460

~Lee

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Interesting guitar, Chris. I have a more recent (2018) Williams and the keyless tuner hasn't changed. The anticlockwise string wrap means that once it's settled, the string tension acts to keep the nut tight. Not that I've had any trouble stringing mine clockwise.
The Williams is an easy guitar to work on.
The Alumitone pickup works well on this model.
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Steve Mueller · From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

Chris,
I've got 3 keyless Williams steels with the same keyless tuner. Not sure if clockwise or counter clockwise wrap matters. I doubt it but I've always gone clockwise with no slippage or detuning.
What may be causing the 6th string detuning is slippage of the string around the top hat after it's been tightened down. I assume you're using a plain 6th as they're the largest diameter plain string and most likely to slip if the metal faces between the top and bottom of the top hat have been damaged by misuse, overtightening or using a larger diameter string. I've damaged a couple over the years experimenting with heavier strings.
Take the string off and then the top hat device. Unscrew the two pieces of the top hat and check the surfaces for damage. If they're chewed up, 3 fixes: 1) switch the damaged top hat(6th string) with the top hat on on the the thicker wound strings as these will be highly unlikely to ever slip, put on a new string - problem solved, 2) contact Bill Rudolph at Williams and order a new top hat to replace the damaged one, or 3) wrap a new string around the top hat post in a "U" shape so that it's almost overlapping giving it more surface to hold firm. Don't overlap the string as this will cause it to break eventually.
Hope this helps!
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2016 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2015 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2023 Williams S12 4 x 5, Milkman Amps, 1974 Gibson Byrdland

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

There is a complete rodding chart on the Williams web page, under technical info/copedent chart - you can get it all correct by looking there
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Christopher Hillman · From: Manchester, UK

Hi everyone ! Thanks for all the comments above.

I havent had much time to mess with the Guitar over Christmas but I just spent about an hour on it tuning up (open strings and the A & B pedals). It seemed like the Pedals must have been tuning the strings as for a while the open string were going out of tune again then it seemed to settle. I played along to some tracks for a while and It seemed to stay in tune(ish). If anything the 6th was still playing up a bit. There are a few other pulls on this string so I unscrewed them to eliminate anything else touching the finger. Then I also slacked off the G# raise and tried to see if the open string tuning moved while winding the nylong tuner back in. Hard to tell but I think it did move a couple of cent maybe.

I also tried pulling the string up like you would on a regular 6 string to stretch off new strings. This made it drop in tuning quite a bit so I'll try re stringing it the other way round. Theres also a G# raise on this string and that too sent the tuning nuts although I dont think this pull is tuning the open string as, you can pull the nylon tuner back away from the finger.

The casting underneath this 6th tuner looks a bit worn as you can see here (the one with the tuning peg above it)

Heres a video of the Nylon tuners moving when pressing the B pedal. Might be of no use but maybe someone will notice something.

https://youtu.be/Zdz3PYuQPOA

I feel like when you sit at this steel and play a lot of the pedals/levels they all instantly react. I'm wondering if everything has just been overtightened over the years.

For now I've just tuned it and will see if it goes out of tune on under tension.

Steve Mueller · From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

Chris,
I'd email Bill Rudolph at Williams and specifically describe as best you can where and under what circumstances the detuning occurs along with whatever photos/videos you have. The top hat pieces in the video should be standing straight up and at the same height under normal circumstances. Looks like they ones you have on there have seen their best days. They're inexpensive and a new set of twelve might help a bit. Bill could tell you whether this is necessary or just help cosmetically.
Clearly something else also going on mechanically. It should tune up and stay there once the strings are stretched.
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2016 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2015 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2023 Williams S12 4 x 5, Milkman Amps, 1974 Gibson Byrdland

Christopher Hillman · From: Manchester, UK

Had some success earlier in the week and managed to get the steel to stay in tune. I think it is all just over tuned as mentioned before. Some of the pedals/ levers still feel like the dont have any slack but it working ok.
I even managed to do a session from home on it! Didnt miss a beat on the tuning and sounded great.

Then I decided to change the 3rd Pedal back to the C pedal it should be. Its a fiddly job under there.

But I kept the same bell crank position and moved it over from the 6th string to the 4th. (5th already raised up) Now it seems like its back to the 6th string going out of tune. I think that 4th string E raise I've not added might be over tuning which is a shame as I'll need to get back under there and undo it all. Not sure how that would effect the 6th string but I can see any reason for that to start playing up again.

I'll investigate further over the weekend

Christopher Hillman · From: Manchester, UK

Just an update on the Williams. I contacted Bill and told him my problems with the steel.

First of all someone mentioned making sure theres "slack". I asked Bill about this and he said with the Guitar not having return springs there is no slack. This was in response to me saying the nylon spacers before the nylon tuners we're up against the metal fingers. Is this standard for a Steel with no return springs for the Pedals? Still learning here.

Heres a video of the changer again: https://youtu.be/PypAaYpO0nc

On to the Top Hat on the Changer. Bill asked for a load of photos of the Steel. He said they were strung the wrong way around and to try them the other way. He didnt think this was my problem but interestingly I swapped the 6th string around and the surface under the top had looked... used.

Lastly Bill mentioned the springs underneath for lowering should only move when lowering strings even if they move slightly, they shouldnt be. They seem to jump sideways slightly, not sure if thats what Bill means (just waiting for a response).

Here is a video fo that: https://youtu.be/48NQdDvsEFE

I'm going to keep playing the Steel over the next few days to see if it keeps its tuning. I may also restring the whole thing If I get time.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

That is correct that without pedal return springs (not to be confused with lower return springs), gravity on the pedals will take out the slack. This is not the same as the lack of slack of overtuning. Pinch the nylon tuner with your fingers and see if you can pull it away from the changer finger. Or turn the guitar upside down and see if the slack is now visible between the nylon and the finger, now that gravity is not pulling the pedal down. Or grab the pull rod and see if you can move it back & forth 1/8".

The weight of the pedal's affect on slack is inconsequential -- if the slack is there in the pull train, this taking up of the slack has no affect on anything other than being unforgiving if you like to rest your foot on the pedal.

The video of the lower return springs looks fine. That is not the movement being talked about. The bad stuff will look exactly like the linear spring pull during a lower, but just a hair of movement -- sometimes just at the very end of a raise.

Christopher Hillman · From: Manchester, UK

Hey Jon, thank you for you reply! It all makes sense now!! I also noticed that some of the rods did not have any slack when you pulled on them so this has helped out a lot!

With this is mind and speaking to another Steel player here in the Uk who has rebuilt a lot of them. I decided to take all the (well pretty much all) the rods out and start again. This also gives me the opportunity to clean it all up underneath.

I took all the rods out for the B6th side and the RKR, RKL and any extra knee levers. I've taken off any extras on the LKL & LKR too but left the main pulls on these levers as they all have slack in them and I'd like to retain these levers.

After a good clean up I started refitting the A & B pedals to check that doing all this would make a difference. Unfortunately it still seems to be doing the same thing. The open (4th string) E seems to return slightly sharp and the (6th string) G# still seems to be moving around too. My thinking now is it has to be something in the changer, sticking at the Nut or the strings?
I just tried putting a screwdriver under the heal of the finger near the top of the body and it seems to reset the E back to zero. I guess this might mean its something in the changer.
A similar story with the 6 string although it seems to be going further past the - 4cent when I do this.

I have got some lubricant coming tomorrow so I can only assume this might help If I work it in.

Here is my E string return back to a few cent above the 10+ cent after being used to lower down to Eb.

Christopher Hillman · From: Manchester, UK

I've just had another look at this 6th string G# and these were the kind of readings I was getting on the tuner.

As you can see 3 different types of A raise note and the G# is flat on return (from G# at -4 cent resting position)

Its only this string on comparing it to the 3rd string G# > A which is working like a dream.
I have had all these rods out and it seem to be working fine earlier or close to fine. The only thing I could see is the spring to the L shape end of the Rod was not in front of the rod but behind the L shape. Although, this hasn't complexly solved it but it is a bit better. There seems to be a lot of side to side slack in this system.

I'm all ears for advice at this point. I've removed everything unnecessary off all these pulls so its just the A B and Es. There is a decent amount of slack in everything now.

I have tuned the G# striaght up to 0 cent. I'll see if its slipped in the morning... maybe its the string its self slipping.

Christopher Hillman · From: Manchester, UK

Just a quick update on this. I just set the steel back up after taking it to a session as a back up steel (so it stayed in its case). Of course it was quite out of tune and I accidentally undid the locking top hat for first string F# rather than tighten up the pitch... I just wasnt thinking.

I couldnt get that string to hold the pitch any longer so I started again with a new string... same story it keeps going to F or lower. Also some of the lower strings such as the G# are doing the same. Unsure if they are affected by this top F#. It purely seems some of the strings wont hold their pitch now even though they are strung correctly.

Its funny how something that was a fun project is now getting very irritating.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I absolutely am NOT saying "I think this may be the problem" but it seems worth relating this story.
A few years ago a friend had an older Williams -- maybe a 400 but I'm not certain....definitely not a 700 such as I've got. He had a hugely important showcase gig in 3 days and he came home from a rehearsal, set up his guitar and EVERYTHING was awful, just out of whack. All the pulls were either out of tune or in some cases not pulling at all.
He drove the guitar 2 hours to my place to see if I could make it playable for his gig. He is a lefty so the possibility of a loaner was pretty much out.

Sure enough, the guitar was a mess. Nothing worked right. I retuned everything, adjusted rods, lever travel, the works, almost got things close and then stood the guitar up and it was all wrong again.
It took me way too long until I finally saw the problem. A wood screw attaching the endplate to the body on the changer end had split the wood -- not a little. Like, a lot. The endplate was almost falling off of the guitar and taking the changer with it. If you pushed it back in, any 'tuning' that you had done with the rods was totally undone. It was a tail chasing exercise until I finally saw the issue.

I did an absolutely awful emergency repair that actually held up for his gig. Then he sent the guitar to Williams for a proper repair. I have not benefited from the great Williams reputation with issues with my guitar but he certainly did.

Anyway, like I said, it is a worthwhile story as far as the moral, which is 'look beyond where the trouble spots seem to be. See if there is anything bigger and more general driving the issues here.

Christopher Hillman · From: Manchester, UK

Thanks for that story Jon. That one sounded like a bit of a nightmare to say the least! I will keep that in mind if problems persist though.

In the end I took the 1st string back off as it wasnt getting anyway. You could hear it slowly detuning. The surface to the 'top hat' screw is pretty well used. I might buy a flat file tomorrow and see if I can get a flatter surface.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

That spring looking thing that is on the end of the rod, (In the bottom picture), Is just a rod retainer to hold the rod in the bell crank. Its job is to keep the rod in the bell crank. Has nothing to do with the actual pulls or tuning of the guitar. The long springs on the bottom of the changer, Hooked to the Lower levers are the springs used in the raise and lower of the strings.
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From the the 2 pictures of the String Head Tuners, They have seen a lot of use and deformation. You may want to remove all of them and file all them flat again. Or consider contacting Williams and check the price of new string mounting fixtures.
On the Williams web site, New hat screws are listed, A set of 10 for 20.00 USD, They also sell 12 hat screw sets too.

Firm string lockdown, No slipping of the strings, And holding their tuning, Is a must in the tuning of the guitar properly.

Good Luck, Getting the guitar to tune properly, Happy Steelin.
I play a GFI keyless guitar and know string lock down can be a problem.

Steve Mueller · From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

What Bobby said. Get a new set of top hat/string head tuners and eliminate that as a possible issue.
_________________
2016 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2015 Williams D12 8 x 8, 2023 Williams S12 4 x 5, Milkman Amps, 1974 Gibson Byrdland

Christopher Hillman · From: Manchester, UK

I think your right guys! I will try filing this flat today just to get me going again but I'll have to order some new ones from Williams I think.

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