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Topic: Tuning and compensators |
ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 1 Jun 2006 10:21 am |
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Dave M...I like that; there is all kinds of "stuff" going on, and it gets fuzzier as the string count and interval count is increased in the chord.
The "good" players know what not to pick and when not to pick it to overcome some of the undesired dissonances.
In the meantime, back at the envelope, some interesting things are happening.
One is that the excited string/strings rotate as well as vibrate. The pickup (in most designs) may be as much as 4 times as sensitive to a given displacement of the string toward and away from the magnet as across the magnet...hence a single string may seem to "breath" as the envelope travels and rotates = what might be heard as a beat.
A second is that two strings will probably be rotating out of sync...Leslie speakers anyone.
I suspect that the "good" players have worked out (may-hap unconsciously) a repertoire of moves that don't violate their tonal sensibilities, while tone deaf clods like me try to see how wide a spread of structures we can have available to use.
We also agree that for 128th notes at a 160 tempo, compensators probably won't help much. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 1 Jun 2006 11:09 am
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Paul, you're a gentleman. We promise not to tell Eric what you said about his mama (just kidding, Eric  , it really wasn't that bad). But hey, please put back that stuff about top studio guitarists tuning to fit each key. I've seen lots of guys do that, but haven't been in top sessions like you to see the A team guys doing that. I think it's important for people to understand that with many of the simple progressions of country, rock and blues, even a guitar can be sweetened a little toward JI, and top players do that. If they don't tune all-ET-all-the-time, why should we?
Dave M., you reminded me to say that an additional problem with ET on steel is that our instrument is exceptionally rich in overtones, because it is a single-piece solid body without even a neck joint. That, and the way we sustain and even swell with the volume pedal really makes beats and ET more irritating on steel than other instruments, and makes JI sound that much sweeter.
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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2006 1:01 pm
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| I've heard that a lot of the pianos in Nashville are tuned to meantone temperament... |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 1 Jun 2006 1:04 pm
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Nashville can be a mean town.
[edited to delete smiley] [This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 01 June 2006 at 02:09 PM.] |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 1 Jun 2006 2:58 pm
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| David D., I like your logic. Well presented. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2006 3:22 pm
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Well, you can analyze it to death, but the fact is still that the audience can't tell unless you simply suck at playing and/or tuning, and JI or ET don't mean squat to 99.9% of the listeners.
"I would add and emphasis one point. All the greats that now prefer ET over JI for the reasons you laid out perfectly, learned how to play in tune with the band using JI.
When a player has problems playing the instrument in tune with the band using JI, this says more about ear training, than switching tuning methods."
This seems to imply that there's something wrong with Buddy Emmon's ear training or something. Why has he gone to ET if it doesn't work?
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Franklin
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Posted 1 Jun 2006 4:53 pm
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Jim,
Those comments are in response of your assumptions about the JI method not working as well as ET. You were the one who stated YOU had problems with JI, not Buddy. Buddy always sounds in tune because he has mastered playing towards the bands center of pitch, which is an external skill. I was merely pointing out that he honed those skills when he tuned to JI.
ET, JI, and Meantone are various ways of tuning instruments internally. Playing fretless instruments in tune requires external skills. Hearing pitch is the ultimate external skill. Buddy Emmon's was born with great ears.
I believe when a player experiences general intonation problems with a band, changing to ET from JI is not going to solve the problem, no more than changing from ET to JI would. Developing our ears to discern the center of the bands pitch and placing the bar accordingly is the only sure way to overcome external tuning problems.
Paul
[This message was edited by Franklin on 01 June 2006 at 05:59 PM.] [This message was edited by Franklin on 01 June 2006 at 08:52 PM.] |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Jun 2006 5:02 pm
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Well Mr Doggett, my esteemed colleague, I must remain amiss of the delegation you ask for in the light of constant edition. I can't be sure it's still there..
Mr Bell's responses always show direction, reflection, a lack of self importance, and a willingness to entertain new ideas. I especially liked his posted examples of different tunings as he played them. It showed me a lot. It's certainly not you Larry.
I have objections only to blanket statements that include "all" "every" "nobody", "never" "always" or other terms that are misleading. Then, as you know, only with a twisted smile and a gleam in my eye. I don't drink..
I get such a kick out of your posts in particular because they are set out in exquisite debate form, lead to conclusions incrimentally, including questionable premises with a lilt and refreshing "je ne se qua", all gathering together nonchalantly for ambush, and then tend to slam the lid down on the unsuspecting victim (lightheartedly).
I warned you some ten thousand words ago that my explanation of "tuning exactly to the best tuner I can find and playing that way to the best of my ability", was becoming less wordy, and more readily defendable.
More words, like extensive
bullet points, etc. tend to tire online "juries", and even exhaust digital ratpacking peanut galleries. Huh b0b....
I apologize to Mr Franklin for in any way offending him by not publically admitting that the way I tune my guitar is wrong, and that his is right.
What he says, or rather types. is indeed right, makes perfect sense, and is borne out by his long and distinguished career, such as it has been.
It's just not right for me, and I look at it differently.
As far as the "top guys" go. I listen to "top stuff", with few exceptions, only for rehearsal for paid gigs. So shoot me.
The last time I spent a lot of time with Tim McGraw, Faith Hill, or Shania on a CD player it was a weeks worth of part time cramming for a 300$ two hour "impersonator tribute", and I was just about wrecked spiritually by the time I played the gig. I passed on the "Garth" rehearsal altogether. They thought I did fine, even they weren't really who they were pretending to be. I'm sure the real Shania would've fired me on the spot..
Now, as a matter of fact, I'm listening nonstop to every bit of telecaster I can get my hands on. I spent nearly all last nite listening to "Married to a Waitress" slowed way down for the guitar parts. I heard the steel guitar over and over again in passing, and whoever it was, was definitely very skilled at "averaging" if some parts of it sounded a bit out of tune. Hey, it's how you play it. How many million times has that been said?
I don't really care how Buddy, Bobbe, Paul, Lloyd, Larry, Lynn, Weldon, or any of them tune. I'm just glad that they do. I take it that they do so because of their own experiences and decisions. I respect them and bless them heartily.
In turn I really don't ask for their blessings or respect. What I have gotten in terms of their taking time with me, enlightening me, encouraging, befriending, selling me stuff, or even offering chastisement of my simple opinions I have appreciated.
All I want to do is in the time destiny has left for me to be able to continue to play steel for money, please myself, and those I work with and for, as I have to my own satisfaction for the last few thousand gigs, and the last 26 or so years. I'm tired, and it's a pleasant feeling.
(Now at age 53 I'v got the same itch for telecaster that I had for steel 28 years ago and guitar before that. I'm putting in a good three hours a day on it, no knowing if Ill ever "get a job". I spend about two minutes tuning it.)
I also wish to impart to those just beginning, that want to follow a similar path, enjoying life, playing a tough instrument, and even pay a few of their bills with their skills is that the "tuning" is the easy part, and I'm sorry that so many people have made this seem an "Impossible Alchemy".
It's not.
Just tune the darn thing and play it.
For Chrissake...
Bless your hearts.
EJL
[This message was edited by Eric West on 01 June 2006 at 09:02 PM.] |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2006 7:42 pm
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Paul - thanks for the explanation. That was quite clear. I still think ET works in 90% of the player's cases, but I understand your position and the whole thing a little more clearly. Thanks.
I'll stick with Eric and tune it and play it, though. It really is amazing what the listeners don't hear that some of us do. I can appreciate Paul's precision, as I do Eric johnson's. Both my be a bit on the extreme end of "correct"...but they aren't "wrong" either. It's a matter of what works for you as a player.
Heck, 8-string, cable-pull Fenders with homemade knee levers and half-stops work for me. And after 40+ years of live and stdio stuff on guitar and bass, I DO appreciate being in tune and playing with others who are in tune. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2006 9:03 pm
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Sounds like a wrap-up to me!  Thanks for the enlightening discussion, everyone.
Now everybody go play your guitars.
------------------
 Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
System Administrator
My Blog |
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