Nashvill Numbering System

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

Larry's right... there's tons of variations, and they all work just fine, and they're pretty much all self-explanatory when you get right down to it.

The important thing is to read 'em, write 'em and hear 'em.

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Thanks Jim, it has taken me years of study to even begin to understand the question I asked. The answer is as I suspected (and had hoped). Thanks again.

Them minors helped me figure out why that darned C pedal was on the geetar to begin with

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 26 April 2006 at 01:35 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I think people make it more complicated than it needs to be. That's why I posted a small chart with just a few keys.

Start out simple. The system is flexible enough to handle a lot of complexity, but you don't have to learn everything all at once.

The biggest value in charts like circle of fifths or the number system doesn't come from looking at the charts. It comes from making them yourself. Sit down with pencil and paper and copy my little number chart above. Now, add another column with the key of A to it. Then add the key of Bb. As you do this, you'll start to understand how music and "Nashville" numbers are related.

------------------

Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Dave White · From: Fullerton, California USA

I agree with Bobby Lee. I've been using the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) method of writing down the number notations, although adapting it somewhat to my own needs. As Larry Bell said, "You write it, you read it." The cool thing about the system is with the pedal steel you can very easily transpose to any key without having to think too much about it.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Don't let this happen to you:

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

Now that's funny.... must be a jazz/fusion tune....

basilh · From: United Kingdom

I've been using the Nashville Numbers system on sessions since the mid 70's, BUT even so, when I visited Chas Williams' site I bought the book and CD..

http://www.nashvillenumbersystem.com/

WHY ? because it's Comprehensive and explains all the used shortcuts like 'Birds eyes' and 'Diamonds' etc.
INVALUABLE.. we all should get it.

------------------

Doug Rolfe · From: Indianapolis, IN

Bobby, that's hilarious. I volunteer tutor in math here at a Christian H.S. I'm going to try and copy that to take into the teachers workroom bulletin board. Great Job.
KISS still works. My daddy told me that a long time ago

Rand Anderson · From: Cardiff, California, USA

NNS is kewl because you can say to your band

intro = 5511 (fifty-five eleven)
verse = 1144 5511 (eleven forty-four fifty-five eleven) think ray price
bridge = 1645 (sixteen forty-five)

noticed i have notated 4 bar measures and where the chord changes are......

now imagine saying:
it goes G and then G and then C and then C
and then it goes C and C and then F and F

what a pain....now transpose for that special sit-in guest that can only sing in Bb

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Any personal quirks about how to "notate" the number system can be confusing, ie: 2m or iim, 4maj7 or 4 with a little triangle, 1#dim or 1# with a little circle, etc.
You get used to them as you read more charts various folks have made.

The important thing when improvising, charting, learning songs, etc. is to realize that the fundamental MUSIC system remains the same, no matter how it's notated.

On the questions of when and why chords are major, minor, dominant, etc:
The chords in a "key" come from skipping every other note from the parent major scale. And doing that from each note in the scale. You can build chords with three note or four note harmony.
Three note harmony from a C major scale yields the chords: C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bmb5
Four note harmony yields:
Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Cmaj7, Gdom7, Am7, Bm7b5.

They all substitute for one another(C=Cmaj7), and can be played with extensions such as 9ths and 13ths, (more or less to taste).
This is why a progression such as "Help me Make it through the night" can morph from
C-F-G-C to Cmaj7- Fmaj9- G13- Cmaj9.

Realizing that ANY Major key presents the possibilities of the many variations on 1, 2m, 3m, 4, 5dom7, 6m, and 7mb5 will get you a long way to understanding songwriting and improvising.

While it is true that the BDF notes of a Bmb5 chord are the same as the upper notes of a G7, and they will substitute for each other, Bmb5 (or Bm7b5, B half-diminshed) is the actual 7 chord in a major scale harmony. The chord "a whole step below" at Bb major for the key of C would be the "flat seven" chord, and implies a departure from strict diatonic harmony, often used in a rock or bluesy context ("Sweet Home Alabama", "Can't you see", lots of modern country pop) in a similar way to the b3 chord (Eb in key of C, as in "Smoke on the Water")

Most people I work with notate the chords from a song as anything that deviates from the 1-2m-3m-4-57-6m-7mb5 pattern.
Common variations include 2major, 6major, 4minor, 5minor, among others.

Questions on where these "out of the scale" chords come from are often answered by looking at the immediate part of the progression where they appear, for example the common Swing 1-6-2-5 progression shows up as a succession of 5 to 1 chord moves leading back to the original key.

A close look at the scale/chord relationship also sheds light on why "modal improvising" works- that the C major scale works over Dm, Em, F, G7, Am and Bmb5. There are years of study right there!

One of the real strengths of the number system many miss at first, is that while a C or Dm chord don't have any particular "sound" by themselves... the chords within any particular key have a distinctive tonal color when they appear in a "number position"... for instance, 6m and 3m sound slightly but distinctively different, and their "sound relationship" is the same in every key. The sound of 4 to 4m is common in older country, and when 4m shows up by itself, it has the same distinctive "sound". So do the b7, 5m, and every other "out chord" (as I've heard them described on the bandstand). As you train your ear to hear these subtle differences, it gets much easier to pick up changes "on the fly".

The difference in tonal colors is invaluable to figuring out tunes or playing by ear, and thinking in terms of the number system is the fast track to categorizing those different sounds in your head, on paper, or when communicating with bandmates.

[This message was edited by Mark van Allen on 28 April 2006 at 02:01 PM.]

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · From: Southaven, MS, USA

The so-called Nashville numbering system is a misnomer: This method of identifying chords/progressions goes back to the 17th Century---see "Figured Bass." ---j---

Larry Lorows · From: Zephyrhills,Florida, USA

Rand Anderson, I like the way you put it. Good job. I studied this fourty years ago and you summed it up great. Larry

------------------
U12 Williams keyless 400
Evans SE 150, Nashville 112, Line 6 pod xt

Michael Breid · From: Eureka Springs, Arkansas, USA

Some personal stories about "musical numbering systems". About thirty-five years ago I worked a show with Tommy Overstreet. Smiley Roberts was playing steel for him. I'd heard about the Nashville Number System and asked Smiley about it. He explained the whole thing to me. Thanks Smiley. Now for some "off the wall" stories about the musical number system. I was a working in a small club once when a singer sat in and was doing a song I wasn't that familiar with. He asked, "Do you know the number system"? I told him I did and we started the song which happened to be in the key of G. He held up one finger. Then he held up two fingers and I went to A. He asked what I was doing, and I told him I was going to the "2 chord". He explained he was using the actual chords in the scale. One finger meant G or 1 #. Two fingers meant D or 2 #'s. The fingers up meant sharps. The fingers down meant flats. So, one finger down meant 1 flat or the key of F. Two fingers down meant to flats or Bb. He said this was the big band number system used on the west coast. I later found out this system was used in a lot of big bands, and small jazz combos. The one story that took me back the most was from my friend Bobby Hicks(no name dropping) who used to play fiddle with Ricky Skaggs. He said he was doing a session in Nashville and the guy he was doing the session for asked if he knew the number system. Bobby said he did. The guy said, "OK, the first song is in the key of 7". Bobby said he wasn't sure what key that was, so the guy starts counting on his fingers, A, B, C, D, E, F, "G". G was the seventh note, so G was the key of 7. I've used that before as a joke, and it does work....for awhile. But don't stay at it too long because it fouls up your whole theory thinking. I once knew a guy who said the number system was really easy. He said that if you were in the key of C that was one. If you went to F that was two, and if you went to G7 that was three. Glad I didn't have to read his charts. It takes all kinds in this business I guess.

Wayne Brown · From: Bassano, Alberta, Canada

this video has a section on the numbering system and can be very helpfull in explaining how it works http://www.outwestmusic.com/instructional_material.htm
thanks
wayne

Howard Tate · From: Leesville, Louisiana, USA, R.I.P.

Micheal, I've run into that a lot in Calif. but I don't remember anyone calling it the number system, most just called it circle of fourths or circle of fifths respectively, up for fifths or sharps, down for flats. It's confusing when they just say "number system". I think that's why they started saying Nashville Numbers. Roy Nickols told me they used to use a system where they wrote a chord name or number with slashes below for each beat, for instance 1 or C with //// below it would mean four beats of C. I don't know if thats an earlier method, or something the Strangers used. Btw Larry, I don't know how you did the working chart, but it's a great aid.

------------------
Howard

Hans Holzherr · From: Münchenbuchsee, Switzerland

The NNS is also a great tool for shortening vocals reheasal time because it's used to write the melodies for the voices, where the numbers signify the scale notes of the key that the song is in, regardless of the chord progression. So far, so good. But one obstacle I encountered was the bridge in "Buckaroo" where it goes from the 1 chord to the +5 chord and on to the -3 chord etc. That was completely messing up my little system, and I wish someone would tell me how to write melodies against key-unrelated chords.

Hans

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Hans, Where is the change you're referring to ?

------------------

Ron Sodos · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU Dr Hugh Jeffereys. I always add my 2 cents here whenever I hear "The Nashville Number System". What a crock!!! How about calling it the Warsaw number system, or the Prague number system. It was probably created somewhere in Poland or Chekoslovakia anyway.
I learned 1 (major), 2 (minor), 3 (minor), 4(major), 5 (major), 6 (minor), 7 (diminshed) in my orchestra class in NYC in 1960 +/- long before it was ever called the Nashville Number System. Whenever I hear it called that it actually makes me angry. But that is my problem isn't it. LOL.......

[This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 01 May 2006 at 01:50 PM.]

Hans Holzherr · From: Münchenbuchsee, Switzerland

Basil, it's 1:12 into the song where it goes "heaven knows..." and the harmony voices echoing.

Hans

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I didn't read every post yet, but,
For me the beauty of the Nashville/Berklee number systems is for instant transposition.

You do a song on F for the male singer,
but suddenly you need to do it in D for the girl singer.

Or even an unexpected mid song transposition of the whole frame work.

With numbers you just change your refrence point 1/I and keep going.

This for me is also just as helpful on heavey jazz tunes,
where transposition is MUCH more difficult.

And often more requested on the fly.<

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 02 May 2006 at 06:09 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 2 May 2006 5:35 am

Having learned the number system while taking classical piano lessons in grade school in the'50s, it was immensely helpful when I took up guitar and started learning guitar chords. It was even more helpful when I took up Dobro and lap steel, because the fret counting relationships to the number system are the same in every key. Finally when I took up pedal steel, the number system became my main way of learning the functions of all the pedals and levers. It seems to me that knowing the number system is essential for learning pedal steel. This instrument is unique in that the fret counting rules, strings, grips, pedals and knees are all identical in all keys in relation to the number system. I can play in any key, just by changing my home fret. Outside of a few common keys, I have no idea what the note and chord names are for the notes and chords I am playing - it's all according to the number system. Unfortunately that makes reading music difficult. But transposing keys is a breeze.

------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Ron Sodos · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

You guys make it sound like such a big deal. Knowing the number system is as simple as Do Re Mi. Its music, thats all. 1 = 1, 4 = 4 and 5 = 5. Why is that so awesome. I learned it at 8 years old. I never called it anything other that learrning music. Just like the key of G has F# and the key F has Bb.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page Previous 1, 2	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic