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Topic: Changer Axle Diameters |
David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 9 Nov 2017 7:17 pm |
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| I noticed there is not a sub-topic on the forum for those that build steel guitars but I do know builders stick their head in here sometimes so my question is what difference does the different diameters of changer axles do to the tone and operation of a pedal steel guitar. I have enough parts at my home to build at least a dozen steels and have built a few already but I have noticed axle sizes in changers can be anywhere from an 1/8" in diameter all the way to 3/4" in diameter and that is a substantial difference. Also on some the lower actuator is narrow and some are flared out like 1960's bell bottom pants. I might want to design my own parts in the future and just wondering how it changes the sound. It's got to change the tone but does thin axle get a smaller or larger sound? More or less sustain? Does bell bottom lowers drop the string further down or are we all just witch doctors? Lol! |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 10 Nov 2017 5:56 am
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I don’t know if it is the reason,not being an engineer or metallurgist, but I really like the tone of ShoBud Permanent and Crossover models. They both had wider diameter axles.
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Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 10 Nov 2017 6:12 am
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| Those sure we're great sounding guitars. I use to have an old Fingertip that sounded great with the big axle. However I got a ZB that sounds great and has a little tiny axle. I have noticed that the small diameter axles almost always have individual support between each finger where the medium size axles might have three to five supports like a Carter and the really big axle diameters don't need to be supported but on both ends. So I'm sure all of those factors effect the sound. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 10 Nov 2017 11:45 am
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The primary factor is resistance to flexing. On guitars with rigid supports between each finger this is a non-issue, but some will argue all this extra contact adversely affects tone. From a physics perspective, a smaller diameter axle is mechanically more efficient (less friction) if one ignores the flexing issue.
BMI axles are only 1/8" but they have supports between each finger, same with Pro-era Sho-Buds, which are 5/16". Emmons guitars have no intermediate supports but are 9/16" hardened steel to resist flexing. Some say the greater mass of the large axle is integral to the inherent tone of these guitars. There is an old thread here somewhere that discusses how they arrived at 9/16" as the optimal "Goldilocks" diameter way back when.
How each approach affects tone is a fairly nebulous question, as there are so many other variables in the overall "system" of a PSG that influence its tone at the output jack. The only way to know would be to test each system on otherwise identical guitars, even then, what constitutes good or bad tone is completely subjective. I have one or more of all of the guitars noted above, they all sound different but they all sound good to my ear. The BMI has the best sustain, better than the PPs. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 10 Nov 2017 12:06 pm
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| Okay I see now why builders do what they do. Thanks guys! That all makes a lot of sense and since everyone has a somewhat different opinion of what constitutes good tone hince all the different designs. They all do seem to agree that the smaller the axle gets the more need for across changer support rather than just a pillar on each side. I get the picture. Thanks! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 10 Nov 2017 2:08 pm
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There is no logical reason to have a shaft at all.
The angle of rotation of the fingers is so small that it should be possible to design a changer with fingers located so that they can rock back and forth slightly with very little friction.
Perhaps the next new breakthrough after the keyless tuner will be the shaftless changer.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 10 Nov 2017 2:22 pm
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"shaftless changer" they're out there Ian. Fender used a shaftless (knife edge) design on some of their models including the rare PS210.
I know there's others, but I'm not recalling them at the moment. I'm sure others will speak up. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 10 Nov 2017 2:25 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
There is no logical reason to have a shaft at all.
The angle of rotation of the fingers is so small that it should be possible to design a changer with fingers located so that they can rock back and forth slightly with very little friction.
Perhaps the next new breakthrough after the keyless tuner will be the shaftless changer. |
The old '50s-'60s Fenders as well as the late '70s Sho-Bud Fenders use this type of system. There is a metal top plate with a radius edge screwed to the body and the fingers have a V-shaped slot with a corresponding radius in the crotch. Very simple, works well and trouble free.
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 10 Nov 2017 2:27 pm
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| oops, Ross replied while I was typing. What are you using on your guitars Ross? |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 10 Nov 2017 4:21 pm
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...which leaves me wondering why they don't seem to have caught on 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 10 Nov 2017 5:08 pm
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| Interesting. No axle at all. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 10 Nov 2017 5:11 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| ...which leaves me wondering why they don't seem to have caught on |
Perhaps on "Raetone" #0002? (or i-Rae?) |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 11 Nov 2017 7:15 am
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
| oops, Ross replied while I was typing. What are you using on your guitars Ross? |
The new Sierra changer uses two pivots. The main pivot in the new Sierra Changer (the one that connects the changer fingers to the guitar) is 3/32" in diameter (.094"). |
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