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Author Topic:  What Chord inversions you wish you had?
Stefan Robertson


From:
London, UK
Post Posted 17 Oct 2017 10:42 am     Reply with quote

Hey Steel family

in an effort to push my theory and tuning research I need your help.

What Chord inversions you wish you had?

I am after weird colourful, expressive that are used in pedal steel, jazz, Western swing and even pop/rock.

I try to boil down chords to their key character sounds - 3, 5, 7, and extensions. Sometimes the 5th is omitted etc.

I can't wait to hear you guys input as your collective knowledge and experience really is mind boggling but a really great resource to pull on.
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Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F Bebop Tuning

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Stefan Robertson


From:
London, UK
Post Posted 17 Oct 2017 12:16 pm     Reply with quote

Nice one Mike. really interesting close voicing. spicy.

Got that one never heard it before.
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E13#9/F Bebop Tuning

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David M Brown


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 18 Oct 2017 4:32 am     Re: What Chord inversions you wish you had? Reply with quote

Stefan Robertson wrote:
Hey Steel family

in an effort to push my theory and tuning research I need your help.

What Chord inversions you wish you had?
.


I may answer this in response to another post of yours, but honestly I'm satisfied with what I can get on my 6 string A6 and related tunings. Between the various slants and behind-the-bar string pulls, I can get all the chords I want for the music I play on lap steel. On my 8 string I can get more chords with alternate tunings, but I really like playing 6 string necks.

Now, I will admit that I don't play a lot of bebop on steel, I've been playing that on guitar for over 4 decades, so I don't feel the need to use my steel for that music too often.

So I may not be the best one to answer, since as long as I can harmonize the melody when I want to with even a double-stop, I'm satisfied.

My playing style is a mix of single-note and chordal playing and somehow if I can't play every melody note with a full chord harmonization, that's OK, since many of the older steel styles I love do not make use of that sound all the time either.

I also teach jazz guitar soloing, so I have a pretty good command of chord theory, so I can use substitute chords a lot. I also assume the rhythm section will be playing the full chord and a bass note, so I do not have to provide all of that either.
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Stefan Robertson


From:
London, UK
Post Posted 18 Oct 2017 5:29 am     Reply with quote

Oooo David with your chops and background your input especially Bebop would be highly appreciated.

Very Happy
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E13#9/F Bebop Tuning

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Mike Neer


From:
NJ
Post Posted 18 Oct 2017 5:46 am     Reply with quote

I always wanted to know enough about bebop to make my playing interesting in other contexts. I never really wanted to play bop, but that language is the essence of cool when used right. All the ingredients: the phrasing, chromaticism, rhythm/swing.

But the most important thing I would say is stop everything else until you have completely mastered the blues forms as developed by Charlie Parker and Bessie Smith (James P. Johnson) all the way to Monk and Coltrane--there are countless variations. That is a lot of music to digest, but everything you need to know is in there. From Bebop to Hard Bop.
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David M Brown


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 18 Oct 2017 7:06 am     Reply with quote

Mike Neer wrote:


But the most important thing I would say is stop everything else until you have completely mastered the blues forms as developed by Charlie Parker and Bessie Smith (James P. Johnson) all the way to Monk and Coltrane--there are countless variations. That is a lot of music to digest, but everything you need to know is in there. From Bebop to Hard Bop.


It's interesting that you mention bop blues, after all, Bird was a master blues player.

Blues comes into play in another way.

I like to teach jazz in a historical fashion - from blues to "dixieland" to swing to bop to fusion. Same way the music and musicians developed.

Or, in reverse, you can't play bop unless you can play swing; you can't play swing if you can't play dixieland; and if you can't play the blues you can't play nuthin'. (sic)
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David M Brown


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 18 Oct 2017 7:10 am     Reply with quote

Stefan Robertson wrote:
Oooo David with your chops and background your input especially Bebop would be highly appreciated.

Very Happy


Thanks, but you might get more real bop info out of a copy of the old Parker Omnibook!

Seriously, though, even as a jazz guitar player I was way more influenced by sax and trumpet players than I was by piano players. I was more into the single-note soloing than the style many pianists used which revolved around chords and chord substitution and alteration.

I may be wrong, but it seems that your universal tuning and working to play full harmonies is sort of piano-influenced. That's a great goal, and if I can help I will, but like I said, I'm more into single-line solos in bop.
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Stefan Robertson


From:
London, UK
Post Posted 18 Oct 2017 7:23 am     Reply with quote

Thanks guys but with all that experience and knowledge short of hooking your brain up to mine.

Ws just wondering if there were any real Chords that stand out related to Jazz that are interesting, unusual or difficult to voice/wished you could voice.

Mike gave me a nice M7 voicing 3-7-1-5 Which the 3 and 1 are close intervals. I was able to get the complete chord with a simple string bend or at least the M7 3-7-5 with a simple reverse slant.

Was thinking more along the lines of some juicy ones like that.

I was able to figure out a 2-5-1 after I studied it keeping the 2 and the 5 on A then using that voicing on the 1.

So Dm - G9 - CM7

Then I tried again with a half step moves even nicer and more modern dissonant sound.

So Dm - G7#9 - CM7

These ideas are what I'm after as far as chord voicings to try.

Thanks David and Mike I would love to still hear your chord input I figure both of you have some bebop cool ideas a plenty.
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Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F Bebop Tuning

Head & Hands to Steel your Heart.
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David M Brown


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 18 Oct 2017 9:01 am     Reply with quote

Stefan Robertson wrote:
Thanks guys but with all that experience and knowledge short of hooking your brain up to mine.

Ws just wondering if there were any real Chords that stand out related to Jazz that are interesting, unusual or difficult to voice/wished you could voice.

Mike gave me a nice M7 voicing 3-7-1-5 Which the 3 and 1 are close intervals. I was able to get the complete chord with a simple string bend or at least the M7 3-7-5 with a simple reverse slant.

Was thinking more along the lines of some juicy ones like that.

I was able to figure out a 2-5-1 after I studied it keeping the 2 and the 5 on A then using that voicing on the 1.

So Dm - G9 - CM7

Then I tried again with a half step moves even nicer and more modern dissonant sound.

So Dm - G7#9 - CM7

These ideas are what I'm after as far as chord voicings to try.

Thanks David and Mike I would love to still hear your chord input I figure both of you have some bebop cool ideas a plenty.


With those ii7-V7-I changes in most bop situations, you have lots of options of how to alter the chords for additional "flavor".

Before I go on, let me be clear, I use Roman numerals for chords, hence ii-V-I.

BUT

I use Arabic numerals for scale degrees and chordal tone numbers, so the ii7 chord in C is Dm7, the 2-4-6-8th scale degrees, and the notes D, F, A and C will be the 1, m3, 5, and b7 respectively.

It gets confusing if Arabic numbers are used for both chords and scale degrees.

Anyway, typical alterations are chromatic passing tones, like making the A in the Dm7 chord an Ab, and the D in the G7 chord a Db:

Dm7 / Dm7b5 / | G7 / G7 b5 / | C

but that D in the G7 chord could also have been raised to D# as in your example:

Dm7 / Dm7b5 / | G7 / G7 aug / | C

It's all about the voice leading.

Let me think a bit and get back on this - and I want another look at your tuning chart.
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Stefan Robertson


From:
London, UK
Post Posted 18 Oct 2017 1:06 pm     Reply with quote

Great tips David

The fretboard layout is here
https://ilapsteel.wordpress.com/the-bebop-tuning/
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E13#9/F Bebop Tuning

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Stefan Robertson


From:
London, UK
Post Posted 18 Oct 2017 1:21 pm     Reply with quote

Great thing is as you make progression suggestions it’s all there mostly straight bar.

Any queries let me know or chord suggestions. I’m super excited about this tunings capability but keen to get you guys continued input.
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E13#9/F Bebop Tuning

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Andy Volk


From:
Boston, MA
Post Posted 18 Oct 2017 5:00 pm     Reply with quote

I wish I had straight at add9 chords sometimes called mu chords
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Stefan Robertson


From:
London, UK
Post Posted 18 Oct 2017 9:12 pm     Reply with quote

There are in there. E13 tuning that Tom Morrell and I also use.

Straight bar.

R-9-3 -5

R -3-5-9
3-5-R -9
5-R-9-3
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E13#9/F Bebop Tuning

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Stefan Robertson


From:
London, UK
Post Posted 18 Oct 2017 9:14 pm     Reply with quote

Andy Volk wrote:
I wish I had straight at add9 chords sometimes called mu chords


Never knew that term but great to know.

Thanks Andy.

Its all at the 8th fret in my tuning.
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E13#9/F Bebop Tuning

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Stefan Robertson


From:
London, UK
Post Posted 18 Oct 2017 9:22 pm     Reply with quote

Funny I remember somewhere on the forum people not understanding the F# in the E13 tuning that Tom and I use.

I think I said if its good for Tom use it. Now I know after studying its benefits in single note playing and mu Chords. LOL. Laughing
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Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F Bebop Tuning

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Stefan Robertson


From:
London, UK
Post Posted 18 Oct 2017 9:25 pm     Reply with quote

To also reapply the concept its the D in the Leavitt tuning.

My 8th fret strings

D - 6
C - 7
Bb - 8
G - 9
E - 10
C# - 12
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Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F Bebop Tuning

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Bill Leff


From:
Santa Cruz, CA, USA
Post Posted 20 Oct 2017 7:35 am     Reply with quote

Go to the guitarist Rodney Jones's Facebook page and watch his video about ideas for subs in blues changes. It's a casual lesson where he demonstrates some of his ideas for mixing up the usual jazz blues changes and subs. I got a lot of new ideas watching it.
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Andy Volk


From:
Boston, MA
Post Posted 20 Oct 2017 8:39 am     Reply with quote

Quote:
A mu major chord or mu chord (signified by μ) is a distinctive voicing of an add 2 or "add 9" chord. It is formed by adding a 2nd to a major triad. The mu major chord differs from a sus2 chord as a sus2 chord does not contain a 3rd. The voicing came to be associated with jazz-rock band Steely Dan.

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David M Brown


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 20 Oct 2017 10:10 am     Reply with quote

I had heard that the "mu" chord was a name for a chord that didn't really exist in old functional harmony but was part of the 20th century sounds of Bartok, Stravinsky, and then used in jazz in various inversions, chords built in 4ths.

So the "mu" chord would be like C D F G , but it was astable sonority and did not release as did either a sus2 or sus4 chord.

But you are correct, and this is NOT a "mu"chord.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_chord

Anyway, we still need good names for non-tertial harmony chords.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartal_and_quintal_harmony
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David M Brown


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 20 Oct 2017 10:20 am     Reply with quote

Stefan Robertson wrote:
Great tips David

The fretboard layout is here
https://ilapsteel.wordpress.com/the-bebop-tuning/


I thought of one more essential bebop harmony/chordal issue, the tritone substitute or tritone sub.

If I recall we were using Dm7///| G7///| C as a basic change.

If we take a G7 chord and make it a G7b5 chord, that is the same note set that makes up the chord of Db7b5; G and Db being a b5 apart.

G B Db F can be spelled as

Abb Cb Db F, and that is a Db7b5 in inversion. (note the double flat - the 5th of a Db chord is some sort of A, not a G. Hence Abb.)

So we could have

Dm7 / Dm7b5 / | G7 / G7b5 / | C

which is

Dm7 / Dm7b5 / | G7 / Db7b5 / | C


Dm7b5 is D F Ab C

or Fm6

thus

Dm7 / Fm6 / | G7 / Db7b5 / | C

and so on

This works really well on sequences of secondary dominants, like the bridge in rhythm changes.
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Stefan Robertson


From:
London, UK
Post Posted 21 Oct 2017 12:02 am     Reply with quote

Thanks I'll give it a whirl.

Found all the chords in straight bar and reverse slant inversions.

and nearby one another so pretty great. Thanks.
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Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F Bebop Tuning

Head & Hands to Steel your Heart.
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David M Brown


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 21 Oct 2017 5:34 am     Reply with quote

Stefan Robertson wrote:
Thanks I'll give it a whirl.

Found all the chords in straight bar and reverse slant inversions.

and nearby one another so pretty great. Thanks.


Great! glad to help
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