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Topic: round vs square cross-shafts? |
Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 16 Oct 2017 6:11 am |
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My 81 Franklin has round shafts. I've never had a puller come lose. However, I have had them come loose on a 71 PP Emmons with round shafts with a flat side.
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GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 16 Oct 2017 7:24 am
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Regarding the Fessenden bellcranks, the slotted design is not really a problem. I have reconfigured 2 of them. Unless you have the nylon nut loosened a lot, you shouldn't have problems with rods falling out. This really only happens when moving or installing new rods. If you hold onto the rod under the guitar when putting the nylon nut, you won't have any problems with the rods falling out.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Storm Rosson
From:
Silver City, NM. USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2017 8:46 am
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| My home made project psg has round shafts and they don't slip ever.....but that's likely to be a result of using hardened, tempered, 5/16" motor shaft rod with a full length key way for the set screws to seat. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2017 2:05 pm
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| Regarding the Fessenden bellcranks, the slotted design is not really a problem. I have reconfigured 2 of them. Unless you have the nylon nut loosened a lot, you shouldn't have problems with rods falling out. This really only happens when moving or installing new rods. If you hold onto the rod under the guitar when putting the nylon nut, you won't have any problems with the rods falling out. |
The problem I had was in simply trying to tune the nylons, which had no excessive slack. It was caused by a size difference between the nylon nuts on the Fessenden and my tuning wrench (which fits fine on my Sho-Bud, Mullen, GFI, and Williams guitars). It was hard to get the wrench onto the nut, and too much pressure pushed the rod, and with it the finger, inward, and with the rod unsecured in the bell crank, it fell out of the slot. This probably wouldn't happen using the Fessenden's own tuning wrench, but nevertheless I prefer the Williams approach (mine's a 400 Series), which also uses slots but adds a spring clip that holds the rod in the slot. Why take any risk of a problem, perhaps for example in a hurried situation? |
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Charley Bond
From:
Inola, OK, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2017 2:46 pm Round shafts
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I have an old Sierra Olympic. It has round shafts, but I overcame that problem with a drill, a tap & socket head screw.
It was setup Emmons & I like the Day setup, so when I did the change, I drilled my spots on the shafts, drilled out the hole in the bell cranks, tapped them & stuck a socket head set screw in there. Then I located the bell cranks & tightened the screw. I used the medium lock LOCTITE. Done Deal...
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Steel Guitar players are members of a Special Family |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 16 Oct 2017 5:42 pm
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| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| Regarding the Fessenden bellcranks, the slotted design is not really a problem. I have reconfigured 2 of them. Unless you have the nylon nut loosened a lot, you shouldn't have problems with rods falling out. This really only happens when moving or installing new rods. If you hold onto the rod under the guitar when putting the nylon nut, you won't have any problems with the rods falling out. |
The problem I had was in simply trying to tune the nylons, which had no excessive slack. It was caused by a size difference between the nylon nuts on the Fessenden and my tuning wrench (which fits fine on my Sho-Bud, Mullen, GFI, and Williams guitars). It was hard to get the wrench onto the nut, and too much pressure pushed the rod, and with it the finger, inward, and with the rod unsecured in the bell crank, it fell out of the slot. This probably wouldn't happen using the Fessenden's own tuning wrench, but nevertheless I prefer the Williams approach (mine's a 400 Series), which also uses slots but adds a spring clip that holds the rod in the slot. Why take any risk of a problem, perhaps for example in a hurried situation? |
Point well taken. I don't understand why there can't matches between the tuners and tuning wrench. I preferred the wrench I got with the Williams I had. Even when I sold the Williams, I kept the wrench as it fit the nuts on my Carter better than the George L wrench.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Mike Bourque
From:
Nashville TN
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Posted 10 Apr 2021 6:54 pm Blanton design is the best
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| b0b wrote: |
I once had a bell crank slip on a round cross shaft, detuning the pedal on stage. Total disaster. Square is the way to go.
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I agree with you there bob. Usually the Blanton design is on a round shaft for more time tuning possibilities and the round one do ring better but I do like the square shaft idea implemented with the blanton style crank like over here
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Emmons Wraparounds and cut tails, Zum D10, Blantons , Fulawkas , Franklin D10, Sho Bud Permanents and Fingertips,Jacksons and Telecasters |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 2:32 am
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[quote="Mike Wheeler"]Karlis, since you're making the parts, I'd go with the MSA style for the pull rod connections (straight rod with round brass bushings), but the Fessenden style 3/8ths square crossrod mount. You'll have the best of both worlds...quick bellcrank position changes, and straight pull rods (very easy to make).
I wish I could find some inexpensive ones like that for my MCI. But the ones I know of are very expensive (I'd need 30 of them). So, I'll have to save up for a while.[/quote] PS
Mike, my thoughts exactly. I made a couple of these bell cranks. Because I too liked the Carter made msa setup. They work perfectly. I would convert my emci to this entirely if I could find 30 bell cranks already made.
To the op...square is the way to go IMO |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 6:02 am
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| I've come to appreciate the extra bit of finesse that round shafts allow. To be able to adjust the bellcrank's position in the arc of the rotation of the shaft adds one more dimension in fine tuning multiple pulls on one shaft. But I am always nervous about tightening and overtightening the bellcranks. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 8:07 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
| I've come to appreciate the extra bit of finesse that round shafts allow. To be able to adjust the bellcrank's position in the arc of the rotation of the shaft adds one more dimension in fine tuning multiple pulls on one shaft. |
Same here. Especially useful for bellcranks with offset holes for rod-bushings.
That a properly tightened bellcrank shall slip on the round shaft, is a lot rarer than breaking strings. Not something I worry about. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 14 Apr 2021 7:33 am
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Round shafts have in my opinion only one draw back: you can't remove the bell-crank unless you remove the shaft.
Slipping has never been an issue on a properly tightened guitar, and the ability to freely angle the bell-cranks is an advantage.
H-style bell cranks are the logical mechanical way to go, as long they are made to pull straight the center of the rod. There are only two ways I've seen this done:
1- the simple mechanical way with lock-barrels which can be somewhat "bulky" and taking space for other rods to pass, or the "Top-Grade" way with pins thru the rod in a comb-style H-bell crank (Franklins and I believe some Zums had that). Everything else with hooks, bend-around will ALWAYS by the unbendable laws of physics applied to mechanics, tend to bend the rods at engagement.
... J-D.
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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