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Topic: Bell Cranks |
Sonny Jenkins
From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 8 Sep 2017 6:02 am
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Why are some designs "fixed" (as multiple hole i.e GFI) and some designs "slotted" (i.e.Fessenden or maybe Zum). Advantages and disadvantages???? |
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Erv Niehaus
From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 8 Sep 2017 7:16 am
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For the same reason some people drive Fords and others drive Chevy's.
Just difference of design they both do the job. |
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Ron Hogan
From: Nashville, TN, usa
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Posted 8 Sep 2017 7:17 am
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Sonny,
I believe each builder tries to make his different if he can. Its hard to change an already great idea by much.
The cranks like GFI naturally pivot/roll some. Sort of like a bearing, without the bearing.
All ways seem to work very well. Not many brands out there that are bad, that i can think of. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 8 Sep 2017 11:17 am
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Thanks for the input,,,however,,,even I can see there is certainly more to it that choice,,,ford vs chevy. The dead connection would obviously seem to be more difficult to balance pulls on the same cross shaft than the slotted connection with 1/4" or more of slack. Of course I play a Kline with yokes that balance automatically,,,just looking for some opinions from an "engineering" perspective. Thanks guys!!! |
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Georg Sørtun
From: Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 8 Sep 2017 11:57 am
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Sonny Jenkins wrote: |
The dead connection would obviously seem to be more difficult to balance pulls on the same cross shaft than the slotted connection with 1/4" or more of slack. |
I cannot see how "slack" helps on balancing pulls. If "slack" is wanted - I cannot see why - the nylon-nut on the pull-rod can be screwed out to create however much "slack" one wants.
I have found no problems in ballancing/timing pulls with GFI / MSA / Dekley bellcranks.
On extended tunings - when timing 3 octaves G# strings for instance - I sometimes add bellcranks to gear down and fine-tune timing on lowest string to the higher strings. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 8 Sep 2017 12:38 pm
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Maybe so,,,it's an opinion |
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Georg Sørtun
From: Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 8 Sep 2017 1:50 pm
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Opinions are fine ... especially when they deviate from mine
I know some put extra bends on pullrods (acts as springs), to really balance out timing between pulls on same axle. That is another method (that actually works) that I haven't found the need for.
I like round bellcrank axles - despite the fact that they can lead to slipping, because they allow for fine-tuning by angling the bellcranks. |
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Richard Sinkler
From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 8 Sep 2017 1:59 pm
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Georg Sørtun wrote: |
Sonny Jenkins wrote: |
The dead connection would obviously seem to be more difficult to balance pulls on the same cross shaft than the slotted connection with 1/4" or more of slack. |
I cannot see how "slack" helps on balancing pulls. If "slack" is wanted - I cannot see why - the nylon-nut on the pull-rod can be screwed out to create however much "slack" one wants.
I have found no problems in ballancing/timing pulls with GFI / MSA / Dekley bellcranks.
On extended tunings - when timing 3 octaves G# strings for instance - I sometimes add bellcranks to gear down and fine-tune timing on lowest string to the higher strings. |
But wouldn't the loosening of the nylon nut make the finger not pull up or down enough to reach the note it is supposed to be? _________________ Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Georg Sørtun
From: Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 8 Sep 2017 6:39 pm
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Richard Sinkler wrote: |
But wouldn't the loosening of the nylon nut make the finger not pull up or down enough to reach the note it is supposed to be? |
If slotted bellcranks can be adjusted to move far enough to create "slack" - as the OP hinted at, then all bellcranks can. Depends on what positions on the bellcranks that are used, and adjustments of pedal/lever stops.
IMO, no big deal ... if one wants "excessive slack" that is.
A detail I forgot earlier: on many PSGs (all of mine) the bellcrank holes are staggered, which in itself may make it more difficult to achieve perfect timing of two strings pulled on same bellcrank shaft. That is one reason I like round shafts, as I can then line the bellcranks up for identical pull-arches.
Another detail I forgot: I prefer to time at least one set of octave strings (the two E strings for instance) off ever so slightly, as it makes it easy to create a "raw beat / subharmonic" sound when that fits a tune, by picking them together and slowly raise or lower them. |
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Henry Matthews
From: Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2017 8:23 am
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As Erv said, they all do the same job but I really like the designs of some over the others. The is one maker that's got a different system where the bell crank actually moves up before it starts to pull which makes very mushy and unpositive pedal feel. I won't mention which one because I told them my suggestion and they got sorta aggravated at me but took it into consideration. I tend to like the bell cranks that have the little barrel on them to adjust rod like GFI and some other brands. Mush easier to tweak out than the bent rod thru slot. I hated MCI bell cranks and those little rubber O rings but they do the job. _________________ Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Stephen Williams
From: from Wales now in Berkeley,Ca, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2017 5:18 pm
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Can anyone let me in on the secret of timing the pulls? I've never had probs because i don't know what I'm looking for.
Is it like Cabinet drop? Meaning the discussion could go on ad infinitum? |
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Henry Matthews
From: Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2017 6:12 pm
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Stephen Williams wrote: |
Can anyone let me in on the secret of timing the pulls? I've never had probs because i don't know what I'm looking for.
Is it like Cabinet drop? Meaning the discussion could go on ad infinitum? |
Timing the pulls means getting the pulls like on one pedal to engage and bottom out at same time or close to same time. You don't have to pull big strings as far as small strings so they need to be in different holes on bell crank and possibly the changer to get them to pull and be in tune at same time.
It gives pedals a smoother feel with no notches in feel when a string pull engages. _________________ Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Tony Prior
From: Charlotte NC
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Posted 15 Sep 2017 4:26 am
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Also keep in mind that the bell crank design , manufacture and cost are part of the overall big picture of, what does it cost to build a Steel guitar and how much do I sell it for ?
All Bell Cranks do the same thing but they are all not equal. A simple 4 or 5 slot Bell Crank without a swivel is indeed much more cost effective than those that use a brass swivel and a set screw. How the rod connects to the Bell Crank is also a premium cost consideration. 100 E-Clips cost about $5 while 4 or 5 spring /hook connectors cost about about $8 or $10. Pick your poison.
They all do the same thing but how they "connect" and what they cost is where the rubber meets the road. _________________ Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Bobby D. Jones
From: West Virginia, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2017 1:53 pm Bell Cranks
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There is also a thing called patents rights. Steel Guitars are mechanical machines. Many parts of steel guitars have patents on them, And cannot be copied and sold unless licensed and royality paid to the original designer. First good reason for not copying an existing set of Bell Cranks.
A little slack in the pull train is essential or a little variance in string diameter in a new set of strings would make tuning impossible without raising the hood and re-adjusting stops and mabe even bell crank holes.
Buy Micky Adams repair CD, He has a good section on final slack adjustment. |
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Ross Shafer
From: Petaluma, California
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Posted 16 Sep 2017 6:48 am
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sorry to further take this any further off topic:
"There is also a thing called patents rights."
Any patents older than 17 years from the date they were issued are no longer in force. Patent protection doesn't last forever and is far less than its cracked up to be anyway. A patent is only as good as the money one has to defend it.
OK, back to bell cranks...I like 'em! Especially if they don't have slots or fixed positions of any kind. |
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