Author |
Topic: The Advent of the Reverse Slant |
Stefan Robertson
From: Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 13 Feb 2017 9:09 am
|
|
Jumping a distance rather than playing the nearby voicIng in a book may be any one of the following reasons :
The author doesn't know his fretboard
The computer doesn't have enough algorithms to process slants and split slants
The material is designed for a beginner
The author is trying to teach the hard way and later introduces the easier way.
The exercise is focusing on a specific technique
It was transcribed from another instrument so the author was just trying to get it done and notated. _________________ Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From: Northampton, MA
|
Posted 13 Feb 2017 9:26 am
|
|
As mentioned in an earlier thread, some of the early music publishers, 1920s, 30s, 40s, had in-house teachers/writers. Sometimes one guy would write method books for several instruments: guitar, ukulele, bass, "Hawaiian guitar", etc. That guy might be an expert guitarist, but not necessarily an expert steel guitarist. No disrespect meant. I'm just saying. Steel guitar was a relatively new instrument at that time. _________________ My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
|
|
|
Jack Stoner
From: Kansas City, MO
|
Posted 13 Feb 2017 10:58 am
|
|
Having started playing steel with a D6 Oahu, I still use some slants on Pedal Steel, both the E9th and C6th. There are many instrumentals that I do on C6th that I never use a Pedal. _________________ GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit (for sale) |
|
|
|
David M Brown
From: California, USA
|
Posted 13 Feb 2017 11:36 am
|
|
Stefan Robertson wrote: |
Jumping a distance rather than playing the nearby voicIng in a book may be any one of the following reasons :
The author doesn't know his fretboard
The computer doesn't have enough algorithms to process slants and split slants
The material is designed for a beginner
The author is trying to teach the hard way and later introduces the easier way.
The exercise is focusing on a specific technique
It was transcribed from another instrument so the author was just trying to get it done and notated. |
One other reason....
phrasing.
this is the only real musical issue, I think.
Sometimes you want the clean break a big jump makes - other times, we want very smooth legato (nahenahe?) phrasing. |
|
|
|
David M Brown
From: California, USA
|
Posted 13 Feb 2017 11:40 am
|
|
Jack Stoner wrote: |
Having started playing steel with a D6 Oahu, I still use some slants on Pedal Steel, both the E9th and C6th. There are many instrumentals that I do on C6th that I never use a Pedal. |
Is your D6 similar to the Rudi Wairata and George de Fretes D6 tuning?
I admit to really liking Wairata's Indonesian/Dutch style. He could really play. |
|
|
|
Jack Stoner
From: Kansas City, MO
|
Posted 14 Feb 2017 3:23 am
|
|
I don't remember what tunings I had on the Oahu. That was 1949/50 era. But, I probably had one neck tuned to the top 6 strings like Little Roy Wiggins' tuning.
_________________ GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit (for sale) |
|
|
|
David M Brown
From: California, USA
|
Posted 14 Feb 2017 4:40 am
|
|
Jack Stoner wrote: |
I don't remember what tunings I had on the Oahu. That was 1949/50 era. But, I probably had one neck tuned to the top 6 strings like Little Roy Wiggins' tuning.
|
Thanks. I'll have to check out Wiggins' tunings. |
|
|
|
Butch Pytko
From: Orlando, Florida, USA
|
Posted 16 Feb 2017 12:24 pm
|
|
I recently went through a very interesting learning/study experience with Hawaiian steel guitar. I had played in country bands for years, but since nothing was happening with country music, I set aside my E9/C6 steel, and started learning Hawaiian steel with my non-pedal and Hawaiian pedal steel. I wanted to learn as much as I could off the Hawaii Calls Instrumental albums that were produced mainly in the 1956-59 time period, featuring Jules Ah See and Barney Isaacs. The REVERSE SLANTS were firmly in place at that time! Mostly on the C6 or C13 variations that Jules and Barney used, but some on E13 and B11, as well. And, yes, I had moments when doing the forward and reverse slants, telling myself that I had already been doing them, but with pedals. Generally, I learned a lot concerning non-pedal; forward/reverse slants; string groups; and the various effect-type licks that they used. Along with that was the startling discovery of how Jules used his Fender 1000 pedal steel. After much study and practice, I came to the conclusion, that he looked at his pedal steel as a non-pedal steel--playing it without pedals--and then, only adding pedals occassionally. My biggest surprise was his use of the Major 7th pedal! I believe pedals 5, 6, 7 and a pedal to lower the top C string to B were used(no knee lever at the time). I'm pretty sure these pedals, which are found on the standard C6 set-up, match the pedal set-up on Jules's C13 tuning.
Needless to say, I'm glad I did this study campaigne, to finally find out what the Hawaiian steel greats were doing back in that great golden age of Hawaiian Steel Guitar! |
|
|
|
Herb Steiner
From: Spicewood TX 78669
|
Posted 16 Feb 2017 2:15 pm
|
|
George Rout wrote: |
C'mon David, that is a picture of some nice scenery on a model railroad.
Regarding reverse slants... I've been playing them since Pontius was a pilot, in fact he was just an air cadet when I was taking Hawaiian guitar lessons in 1948.
Geo |
I just spit up a swallow of some very good wine when I read that! _________________ My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From: Northampton, MA
|
|
|
|
David M Brown
From: California, USA
|
Posted 24 Feb 2017 3:55 am
|
|
I was reading some music in the "Superior Collection of Steel Guitar Solos" by Keoki E. Awai, c. 1917, and in a couple of tunes I found a reverse slant on strings 2 and 4.
1917! |
|
|
|
David M Brown
From: California, USA
|
Posted 24 Feb 2017 3:56 am
|
|
Andy Volk wrote: |
I got rid of all my very old method books a while ago so can't check on this, but it strikes me that reverse slants were in use from the earliest days of steel playing. Anybody have a circa WWI method book to corroborate my theory? |
See above post, but yes, 1917. |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From: Boston, MA
|
Posted 24 Feb 2017 5:50 am
|
|
Thanks, David. I suspect any curious musician would experiment and discover reverse slants. I"m gonna go out on a limb and say they were in use pre-1900 but there's no documentation. John Troutman, are you around? _________________ Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
|
|
|
Sebastian Müller
From: Berlin / Germany
|
Posted 25 Feb 2017 11:51 am
|
|
Guy Cundell wrote: |
I have quite a bit of old paper in one form or another. My observations are that, yes, there are a few examples of reverse slants in publications around WWI but they are rare. Here is an elegant example of a V7 to I cadence (as mentioned by David) in a 1916 method book by N.D. Bailey. However, I can find no reference to the technique in any method book concerned with Low A.
Moving on to E7, C#m and F#9, I have found no reverse slants in McIntire’s arrangements for F#9 or E7 and only a solitary example in Sol’s arrangements for C#m, all published by Ball. Nor have I found any in Bernie Kai’s arrangements for Ray Meany’s Golden Gate Publications. It is true to say that reverse slants are an advanced technique and most of these publications are fairly safe and not aimed at professional players. |
I just find it amazing who players like Sol and Dick where able to play absolutely perfect steel parts with rather simple tunings and techniques. I always try to remember this when I try to find the silver bullet tuning : ) ! _________________ https://hawaiian-steel-guitar.com |
|
|
|
David M Brown
From: California, USA
|
Posted 25 Feb 2017 1:39 pm
|
|
I just find it amazing who players like Sol and Dick where able to play absolutely perfect steel parts with rather simple tunings and techniques. I always try to remember this when I try to find the silver bullet tuning : ) ![/quote]
Those guys got a lot of music out of those tunings...on 6 strings. |
|
|
|
Guy Cundell
From: More idle ramblings from South Australia
|
Posted 16 Aug 2017 10:19 pm
|
|
Sebastian, I just found this which might be of interest. 'Hawaiian Steel Guitar" by C.S. De Lano, 1927, LA. Looks all very wristy with a flat bar but the thought is there.
|
|
|
|
George Piburn
From: The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
|
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From: Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 17 Aug 2017 8:01 am
|
|
I don't know what tuning he was using but you can pull up a video on YouTube of Jerry Byrd playing Estralita and he is using a reverse slant.
A beautiful song. |
|
|
|
Brian McGaughey
From: Orcas Island, WA USA
|
Posted 17 Aug 2017 9:43 am
|
|
RE George's post with the Nick Manoloff book: I'm surprised to see the 3 string slant position one fret apart across 5 strings.
It makes a major 3rd in the bass, a fifth above the root and the b7 above the root. Simple math says the 5th will be sharp by 25%. Right? (assuming frets at that location make squares with the strings). Seems like more than vibrato could take care of. Perhaps in passing to a chord a 4th above it works? |
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From: Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 17 Aug 2017 9:53 am
|
|
They sure didn't worry about cabinet drop back then, did they? |
|
|
|
Sebastian Müller
From: Berlin / Germany
|
|
|
|
Jim Pitman
From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
|
Posted 18 Aug 2017 11:31 am
|
|
If you decide to get into slants one thing that really helps is a guitar whereby the string to string spacing is the same at the nut as it is as at the bridge. - One less neck location dependent variable.
My favorite on the G tuned dobro is a forward slant on the 2nd 3rd and 4th strings. (D B G stings). It's a triad that serves as a nice five chord tag with both a 6th and 7th note in the structure. It is a little inaccurte of course as one of the notes will be off but it's quite tolereable. |
|
|
|
Guy Cundell
From: More idle ramblings from South Australia
|
Posted 19 Aug 2017 1:21 am Re: Nick Manoloff Copy Right 1936
|
|
George Piburn wrote: |
Nick Manoloff Copy Right 1936 |
Interesting find, George. That split reverse with two dead strings in the middle is interesting. I don't think I've ever seen that in print before. I know Manoloff's guitar method is pretty famous but was he ever much of a steel player? |
|
|
|
Stephen Cowell
From: Round Rock, Texas, USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2017 6:52 am
|
|
David M Brown wrote: |
Thank you for all the great replies!
Since this forum cannot multi-quote, I'll have to add a few posts..... |
David M Brown wrote: |
Mike Neer wrote: |
I've spent enough time with all the tunings to see their usefulness/limitations. C6 still seems to be the one with the most hidden surprises. |
I'm curious if you think C6 has any more surprises than A6?
I mean both with E on top, the C6 w/ G on top is just a transposed A6. |
David M Brown wrote: |
Andy Volk wrote: |
Thanks for the visual evidence, gents. It would have been interesting to have film of the earliest players and I agree that some advanced techniques were likely not shared in teaching methods. |
Especially since the amateur home self teaching methods often were for a solo style arrangement rather than the more single-line and chord approach of the real professionals. |
David M Brown wrote: |
George Rout wrote: |
Re the reverse slants, being an old timer using A Major tuning, I've been playing them since Pontius was a pilot, in fact he was just an air cadet when I was taking Hawaiian guitar lessons in 1948. I hated them because they were had to get accurately with small hands. However, I still teach using them in A Major today. I think all this A Major tuning will drop dead with me!!!!! |
I still play some A low and high bass on acoustic steel.
Since I play a lot of A6 on electrics, much of the same stuff from the older A tunings can be done on the top strings of the A6 tuning. I suppose this is why I like A6 somewhat more than C6. |
David M Brown wrote: |
Stefan Robertson wrote: |
For me I am learning ALL because I believe in a technique I call "Proximity" ....find the chords you need in close proximity. Only move if it is in the wrong octave.
|
I like to do this too, rather than jump a good distance on the fingerboard - unless that is the effect I want. But if I can get the notes I need very close by, using slants, I'd rather do so for phrasing reasons.
Some of the books have both staff notation and TAB, often I see them jump rather than use a close-by slant. I wonder if it was done for reasons of phrasing or for easy bar work? |
David M Brown wrote: |
Doug Beaumier wrote: |
I have discovered that students really want to learn to slant. They are fascinated by it and they want to learn the technique. So I introduce them to forward slants fairly early. Reverse slants take a little more time to master... moving the thumb to the rear of the bar and pushing it forward. |
You sound like a great and fun teacher. |
It can't? _________________ New FB Page: Lap Steel Licks And Stuff: https://www.facebook.com/groups/195394851800329 |
|
|
|
David M Brown
From: California, USA
|
Posted 19 Aug 2017 9:38 am
|
|
Stephen Cowell wrote: |
David M Brown wrote: |
Thank you for all the great replies!
Since this forum cannot multi-quote, I'll have to add a few posts..... |
... |
David M Brown wrote: |
George Rout wrote: |
Re the reverse slants, being an old timer using A Major tuning, I've been playing them since Pontius was a pilot, in fact he was just an air cadet when I was taking Hawaiian guitar lessons in 1948. I hated them because they were had to get accurately with small hands. However, I still teach using them in A Major today. I think all this A Major tuning will drop dead with me!!!!! |
I still play some A low and high bass on acoustic steel.
Since I play a lot of A6 on electrics, much of the same stuff from the older A tunings can be done on the top strings of the A6 tuning. I suppose this is why I like A6 somewhat more than C6. |
David M Brown wrote: |
Stefan Robertson wrote: |
For me I am learning ALL because I believe in a technique I call "Proximity" ....find the chords you need in close proximity. Only move if it is in the wrong octave.
|
I like to do this too, rather than jump a good distance on the fingerboard - unless that is the effect I want. But if I can get the notes I need very close by, using slants, I'd rather do so for phrasing reasons.
Some of the books have both staff notation and TAB, often I see them jump rather than use a close-by slant. I wonder if it was done for reasons of phrasing or for easy bar work? |
David M Brown wrote: |
Doug Beaumier wrote: |
I have discovered that students really want to learn to slant. They are fascinated by it and they want to learn the technique. So I introduce them to forward slants fairly early. Reverse slants take a little more time to master... moving the thumb to the rear of the bar and pushing it forward. |
You sound like a great and fun teacher. |
It can't?[/quote]
I figured out a way to multi-quote.
Finally.
But I was hoping you had a comment about slant bar techniques. |
|
|
|