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Author Topic:  Misty on B3
Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post Posted 3 May 2009 9:12 am     Reply with quote

....so I been listening to this cut, along with some other Hammond music that I recorded off NPR, I think, some years ago.

It's an outrageous uptempo version of the classic tune in 4/4 that just knocks me out. Classic Hammond B3 delivery.

Because I didn't make any notes on the tape and my "remembry" isn't what it used to be, I'm questioning who did it.

I believe it might be Richard "Groove" Holmes, but not sure. I know Brother Jack McDuff also recorded it and probably many of the other Hammond masters including the great pioneer Jimmy Smith.

Does my description of this particular cut ring any bells among blues/jazz/Hammond enthusiasts?
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post Posted 3 May 2009 9:50 am     Reply with quote

Yes, way back then when we actually were carrying a B3 and a Leslie, my buddy came home with an LP of R Holmes playing Misty, I believe the original LP from the mid to late 60's or around that time anyway, My friend, a very fine all around musician still covers it pretty close to the Holmes version which is a known B3 classic.

great tune

t
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Donny Hinson


From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post Posted 3 May 2009 10:01 am     Reply with quote

I like Joey DiFrancesco and Jimmy McGriff, and most of all Jimmy Smith. But maybe this is close to what you're talking about...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK2r9626MNo

Of course, it ain't Misty, but Barb ain't bad either!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60ut7yIuCEY
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Russ Tkac


Post Posted 3 May 2009 7:26 pm     Reply with quote

Love the Hammond! Smile

I saw Groove a number of times in the 70's at Baker's in Detroit.

A few years ago I had a visit at the store from Dr. Lonnie Smith. I've never heard so much come out of a B-3 by one man in my life. Check these out.

Russ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcI3NY46Ooo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPDzpe9WLWM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0ieCmTEvy0&feature=related
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Jerry Gleason


From:
Eugene, Oregon, USA
Post Posted 4 May 2009 7:06 pm     Reply with quote

Yeah, I'll bet that up-tempo version you're talking about is Groove Holmes. Probably the one from his LP "Misty" from the mid-sixties.

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1036395/a/Misty.htm
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Tracy Sheehan


From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Post Posted 4 May 2009 7:30 pm     Misty: Reply with quote

What is B-3?I am behind the times.I played Misty in E flat as that is what the singer sang it in back when i first learned it.
I liked the up tempo version of it also but don't recall who did that, but it sounded like the steel player was doing it on the E 9th.Any one know for sure?Tracy
Was a b3 an organ?
It almost cane to me.The up tempo verison i remember was Steve ?.
sheesh
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Brett Day


From:
Pickens, SC
Post Posted 4 May 2009 8:52 pm     Re: Misty: Reply with quote

Tracy Sheehan wrote:
What is B-3?I am behind the times.I played Misty in E flat as that is what the singer sang it in back when i first learned it.
I liked the up tempo version of it also but don't recall who did that, but it sounded like the steel player was doing it on the E 9th.Any one know for sure?Tracy
Was a b3 an organ?
It almost cane to me.The up tempo verison i remember was Steve ?.
sheesh


Tracy, are you talkin' about Ray Stevens doin' an uptempo version? Yeah, the B-3 is an organ made by Hammond. A lot of keyboardists play 'em. There's one in the song "Believe" by Brooks & Dunn.

Brett

Brett
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Tracy Sheehan


From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Post Posted 4 May 2009 9:21 pm     Re: Misty: Reply with quote

Brett Day wrote:
Tracy Sheehan wrote:
What is B-3?I am behind the times.I played Misty in E flat as that is what the singer sang it in back when i first learned it.
I liked the up tempo version of it also but don't recall who did that, but it sounded like the steel player was doing it on the E 9th.Any one know for sure?Tracy
Was a b3 an organ?
It almost cane to me.The up tempo verison i remember was Steve ?.
sheesh


Tracy, are you talkin' about Ray Stevens doin' an uptempo version? Yeah, the B-3 is an organ made by Hammond. A lot of keyboardists play 'em. There's one in the song "Believe" by Brooks & Dunn.

Brett

Brett

Thanks Brett.And you got it.Ray Stevens is who i was trying to think of.Tracy
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post Posted 5 May 2009 6:20 am     that's it! Reply with quote

Thanks Jerry, that's the one. Interesting titles on the rest of the CD too. Guess I'll have to pick that one up. Don't know what the connection is, but I see Jimmie Smith's name listed in personnel.

I have the Ray Steven's lp that has Misty, Deep Purple and other serious tunes. Nice music with Jay Dee Maness and Hal Rugg on steel.
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Jerry Gleason


From:
Eugene, Oregon, USA
Post Posted 5 May 2009 8:07 am     Reply with quote

I believe that Jimmie Smith is the drummer on that session, not Jimmy Smith the organist. I had to do a double-take on that, too.
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post Posted 24 Jul 2017 1:54 pm     Redux from '09 Post Reply with quote

In a bit of a funk recently...needed some motivation so I got this out again. I'm always knocked out by it and I have listened to this 6 min. long version of it over and over many times through the years. It always does the trick. Smile

I thought maybe someone else would like a shot of it.
https://youtu.be/LAP259nLGj0
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Andy Volk


From:
Boston, MA
Post Posted 24 Jul 2017 5:04 pm     Reply with quote

Yes - it was Groove Holmes. His uptempo B3 version of Misty was a 1960s jukebox hit in the Philly/NJ area. It's a classic arrangement!

at about 5:19 bluesman Charley Batty and his group re-create Groove's classic arrangement here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hs0Oms5G18

Another great uptempo version of Misty:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAwAEj6Mdbw
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Richard Sinkler


From:
Oakdale, California
Post Posted 25 Jul 2017 10:01 am     Re: Misty: Reply with quote

Tracy Sheehan wrote:
What is B-3?I am behind the times.I played Misty in E flat as that is what the singer sang it in back when i first learned it.
I liked the up tempo version of it also but don't recall who did that, but it sounded like the steel player was doing it on the E 9th.Any one know for sure?Tracy
Was a b3 an organ?
It almost cane to me.The up tempo verison i remember was Steve ?.
sheesh


I don't now if your question was actually answered, but Ray Stevens version of "Misty" was Jay Dee Maness on steel.
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Glenn Suchan


From:
Austin, Texas
Post Posted 27 Jul 2017 8:21 am     Reply with quote

Donny Hinson wrote:
... Of course, it ain't Misty, but Barb ain't bad either!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60ut7yIuCEY


Hey, Donny, thanks for the Dennerlein link. She's been a fav of mine for years. Like Joey D., Barbara started out as a child prodigy on the B3. She received her first B3 at age 13, played her first concert at 14 and started playing the B3 in Munich's jazz nightclubs at age 15.

How 'bout Rhoda Scott:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB4MTN_oy6E

Another of my favorite Hammond B3 players is Tony Zamagni (aka) Tony Z. Again, this ain't "Misty", but it ain't bad (or maybe it IS bad ... bad to tha bone):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oiyhAtNLQQ

Keep on icky'!
Glenn
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Godfrey Arthur


From:
Philippines
Post Posted 6 Aug 2017 2:38 pm     Re: Redux from '09 Post Reply with quote

Jerry Overstreet wrote:
Smile

I thought maybe someone else would like a shot of it.
https://youtu.be/LAP259nLGj0


Jerry thank you for the link to the Groove clip.

Not many videos have surfaced of Groove.

Here is one a different song mind you and if you can overlook the voice over in Spanish at the start of the video you will see rare Groove playing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXHQ0wWodXU


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Jeff Garden


From:
Center Sandwich, New Hampshire, USA
Post Posted 6 Aug 2017 2:53 pm     Reply with quote

If you're in a B3 mood Jerry, another favorite of mine besides Joey DeFrancesco is Tony Monaco. Joey D also recorded an album with guitarist Danny Gatton called "Relentless" which is worth a listen.
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Godfrey Arthur


From:
Philippines
Post Posted 6 Aug 2017 5:20 pm     Re: Misty: Reply with quote

Tracy Sheehan wrote:
What is B-3?
Was a b3 an organ?


The B3 still is.

It was made by the Laurens Hammond company, Laurens an inventor who started out making clocks using motors that sync to 60hz AC power frequency to keep time, created an organ together with John M. Hanert using a mechanical tonewheel generator that keeps in tune from the 60hz from your basic wall outlet.

This model is still in use today and there are many country hits that use THIS MODEL organ more than most rock today when the reverse was true decades ago.



Today with fluctuating 60hz provided by your local power grid a frequency converter is needed at least in major concerts to keep the Hammond organ in A-440.

The speaker next to the organ is a Leslie speaker invented by Don Leslie. There was a time when Laurens banned his dealers from selling Leslies with Hammonds. But the Leslies got sold anyway as the marriage of the Leslie with the Hammond or any organ actually was literally made in heaven.

Eventually the Hammond Organ Chicago company folded and it was decades before Suzuki took over the company but mechanical tonewheel generators have been replaced by digital simulators. Japan never made a tonewheel generator Hammond and now clones have taken over many gigs for its lightweight and cheaper costs.

The last Hammonds with tonewheel generators and were made entirely in America rolled off the assembly line in the mid 1970's before Hammond closed its doors. So the B3's you see in use and preferred are anywhere from 50-approaching 70 years old!

The B3 was a home model as the player would not be facing an audience as the underneath of the organ is open, vs the other models used in church and auditoriums that had a full cover to hide the player's lower extremities.




C3 has same keyboard, drawbars and controls as a B3.


The B3 became the Hammond of choice with the C3 which is the full covered public display version being made famous by Jon Lord of Deep Purple, Keith Emerson of ELP, an alternative. And most likely because in Europe, B3's were hard to come by.

And because of its popularity, the B3 costs more over all the Hammond organs on resale just because of the cabinet.

Korg made the first successful clone in the 1980's:



But today there are numerous clone makers some from Italy, Sweden and of course Hammond-Suzuki in Japan as well as Korg, Roland.


Most looking for a B3 will want the mechanical tonewheel generator which consists of 91 wheels turning in front of a pickup to get the tones.



And like a clock the tonewheel needs to oiled yearly with special organ oil to reach the bearings.

The Leslie which is Don's take on a pipe organ's movement of air through pipes making the pitch doppler or go up and down in pitch, is two rotors over a 15" bass speaker and a trebel driver connected to two motors each rotor to provide slow (chorale) and fast (tremulant) speeds on the rotors controlled with a switch at the organ.

This also needs oil and belts (and tubes) but is still in use today.

And Hammond-Suzuki bought Leslie so now they make both units.









Laurens Hammond sitting at a "B" type console. These started in the 1930's. There were also "A's" that looked similar. The B3 was much later mid to late 1950's until mid 1970.

B "3" meaning it had percussion tone features that gave Hammond its distinctive sound.



Don Leslie

Can anyone say Oscar and Felix?

This is how you move a B3:



400 pounds just the console itself.

Been there:

https://giphy.com/gifs/hammond-b3-organ-moving-l41JPmI4KNhAutIpa
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post Posted 6 Aug 2017 6:11 pm     Reply with quote

Thanks for that video treat Godfrey. Yeah guys, I've been a fan of the B3 organ sound for many years. I'm familiar with a lot of the guys and gals that can lay it down like that, but I'm always grateful for any new leads.

Also thanks for the great detailed breakdown on the Hammond and the Leslie.

Although it's no replacement for the real thing, here's my clone: I don't tell everybody...they might expect me to be able to play something on it Exclamation



I also have a key controller, sound modules and other electronics with some nice B3 and rotary programs.

I have a basic education in theory and keyboards, but I don't practice it very often so not too good, but it's still fun...I get a lot of enjoyment out of it. No chance I'll every have a real one...wouldn't have a place to put it or be able to move it around anyhow.
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Godfrey Arthur


From:
Philippines
Post Posted 6 Aug 2017 8:47 pm     Reply with quote

Jerry Overstreet wrote:
Thanks for that video treat Godfrey. Yeah guys, I've been a fan of the B3 organ sound for many years. I'm familiar with a lot of the guys and gals that can lay it down like that, but I'm always grateful for any new leads.

Also thanks for the great detailed breakdown on the Hammond and the Leslie.

Although it's no replacement for the real thing, here's my clone: I don't tell everybody...they might expect me to be able to play something on it Exclamation



I also have a key controller, sound modules and other electronics with some nice B3 and rotary programs.

I have a basic education in theory and keyboards, but I don't practice it very often so not too good, but it's still fun...I get a lot of enjoyment out of it. No chance I'll every have a real one...wouldn't have a place to put it or be able to move it around anyhow.


You're most welcome Jerry.

I see we follow similar paths just at different times in our lives. I always wanted to play steel but only got around to it later in life. Can't play it yet like you guys.

I played an awful lot of keyboards through the years.

I have two B3's and four Leslies but also have a clone.

Just playing two-note chords on a Hammond type keyboard can fill a lot of music space so no need to get fancy if you don't want to. Pads are the most fun for me mixing drawbar shapes and using rotor animation.

I think Roland makes a great sounding Hammond engine too. The VK7 is the better sounding 61 key clone than the VK8 although the 8 has waterfall keys.

Here's my clone:


Roland VK8M organ module

That's Gregg Rolie's autograph at the bottom of the bars.

I use a controller but am in the process of making a MIDI controller out of a real Hammond 61 key manual.

I use a real Leslie though. The centrifugal force of moving rotors is what I depend on for animation techniques, going from chorale to fast to stop letting the rotors coast to spin-down, what we call ramps. The Leslie should be serviced to get a good response, belts adjusted, top rotor lubed, motors cleaned, oiled and adjusted as there are two motors that are pancaked onto each other to provide fast and slow with a rubber lined wheel.

Here's an upper rotor motor set:


Here's a lower rotor motor set:


The motors are the same just mounted differently as the upper rotor motor hangs from the baffle while the lower rotor motor sits on the baffle.

Motors run on 115vac and when one speed is switched from a switch at the organ, the larger motor is the fast, it turns off then the smaller motor that makes the slow or chorale speed kicks in, drops a spindle that is spring loaded and then rubs up against a rubber tire using the armature of the fast motor to drive the rotors in chorale. So it's a constant on/off of each motor and they can't be on at the same time.

These have to be adjusted, the tires in good condition which look like oversized O-rings. Lots of parts to take apart and adjust for timing and proper actuation of the motor stack to work together.

Like a pedal steel.

The Leslie amp not only provides audio power it provides 115vac to run the motors. This is controlled through a 6-pin Amphenol connector/cable and the idea of running audio and AC through the same cable was grandfathered in as today it's against code. You can't run a Leslie cable through a wall for the code violation. The cable itself is a special creation as the 2 audio wires are twisted inside the sheath for shielding purposes.


6 conductor Leslie speaker cable.

Many clones are outfitted with a Leslie connector output but for certain Leslie models like the 122 which is a 6-pin connector, you need another powered box adapter to get from 9 or 11 pin to go to 6 and then to provide external AC power to the Leslie.



For mainstream jazz organists I did get to see Jimmy Smith during a Philip Morris world jazz tour.

Besides Gregg, Chester Thompson, Rod Argent, Bill Champlin seen them many times. Also Tom Scholz of Boston.

I think that pedal steel and organ have something in common as to the way it is used for fills on song tracks. I can hear steel parts call and response in my head, just can't play them. Steel players and organ players are perhaps similar musicians. You've got all limbs moving to play the instrument AND we both use a swell pedal.

I think this is evidenced on how steelers are incorporating organ machine pedals even if some frown on the idea.

There is so much I hear you guys play that I could not have imagined.
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Quentin Hickey


From:
NS, Canada
Post Posted 11 Aug 2017 4:52 pm     Reply with quote

...and we complaine about carrying our steels and Nashville 400's around eh? :lol:
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Scott Duckworth


From:
Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies
Post Posted 12 Aug 2017 3:03 am     Reply with quote

I've always said if a church doesn't have a Hammond B-3, it doesn't have an organ.

My grandfather pastored a small country baptist church. The had a woman that played the church's B-3 with two leslies (one on each side of the choir) and man she could make that thing talk.

Years after my grandfather had retired, he was called back to preach on night, and they asked me to come lead the choir. I purposely picked picked songs that would let the choir shine and told the organ player we would be taking pauses in the songs for her to shine. Man, what a night! Even Bill Gaither would have been grinnin' from ear to ear.
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Joachim Kettner


From:
Germany
Post Posted 12 Aug 2017 9:29 am     Reply with quote

Scott, did the church music also include a piano along with the organ? That's how I remember it.
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Godfrey Arthur


From:
Philippines
Post Posted 12 Aug 2017 12:41 pm     Reply with quote

Quentin said:
Quote:
...and we complaine about carrying our steels and Nashville 400's around eh? Laughing



Yes Quentin musicians are no slouches when one thinks of what we go through to present a few hours of joy and inspiration to the planet.

It helps to have a band who is willing to help move such a heavy instrument.

I used to move my B3 by myself to a gig many a time as many have.

Most of us know what it takes to do a gig from the house and back. PSG is not light either compared to a regular guitar.

When the B3 and it's older brothers came out, Laurens had to convince the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) who on behalf of the Skinner Pipe Organ company, sued Hammond in 1936 for making advertisement claims that his instrument "could produce the tones of a pipe organ" which in that year a Hammond organ cost USD$2,600 vs the Skinner pipe that cost USD$75,000. These are 1930's dollar figures.

Laurens had hoped to bring affordable pipe organ sounds to homes and that his instrument would help create jobs.

The U.S. Patent Office rushed him a patent after he brought his invention to the Patent Office to demonstrate it.

During the lawsuit, a panel of musicians and non-musicians was set up to do a blind test between the Hammond, (a scaled down version of the Cahill Telharmonium which used motors and gears to create tones that was so huge it was housed in a warehouse) and a Skinner pipe organ.

Although the results of the blind test were confusing as history reports it, the end result was they couldn't tell the difference between the organs but witnesses at the blind test stated they noted that Skinner employees tweaked the Skinner to sound more like Hammond's organ.

The FTC ordered Hammond to stop using claims his instrument sounded like a pipe organ.

We now know that Hammond had unknowingly created a Hammond organ sound that today is being copied and enjoyed over any type of organ, with so many song hits featuring the Hammond sound with little end in sight.

Hammond realized even if he paid for the lawsuit and got a bad judgement, his sales went up because of the publicity of the court case.



The Cahill Telharmonium, in two pieces, the sound engine was 60 feet long and weighed 200 TONS!

This was just the "engine" that made the sound.

The keyboard took up another room in the warehouse.


The keyboard for the Telharmonium.



Here's one of the main parts inside the Telharmonium engine! Is that a Powerglide or a TorqueFlite?

ATF-4 Dexron? T4? Mercon V?



Hammond's tonewheel generator.

Each of those rods on the side holds the pickup that sits in front of one continous rotating wheel much like a pickup sits next to a guitar string, helps create the organ sound. 91 wheels in all inside that chassis with capacitors on each wheel and pickup.



The pickups (green tipped) facing the tonewheels inside a B3 have windings much like a guitar pickup.

A trained tech has to adjust the distances of the pickup from each wheel without running the pickup into the wheel, and damaging the wheel while the organ is running to balance the sound of all 91 wheels.



An exploded view of the tonewheel generator parts.



No tuning here as the synchronous motor (rectangular box) Hammond was famous for got it's A-440 from 60hz AC wall outlet in the case of U.S. based Hammonds. 50hz if you are in the UK and elsewhere with 220v 50hz grid power.

The 'UFO' looking round device with all the screws behind the motor is the vibrato scanner.

This is how the Hammond makes vibrato.



The insides of the vibrato scanner look much like a car distributor where a rotor rotates, in this case close to some fins that create vibrato, like fins used in an old radio tuner.

The scanner needs oil as well and gets it from the bathtub that oils the synchronous motor.



Note the little square "bathtub" that holds Hammond oil in the case of the tonewheel generator's motor and vibrato scanner, and the slender white cotton thread wick used to deliver the oil by capillary action behind the flywheel.

The generator has spaghetti long such threads to bring oil to each tonewheel's bearings and their own oil cups and distribution tubes. Oil once a year is recommended.



Some musicians have used these Hammond organ scanners to make their own vibrato "pedal" system for guitar. Here's the scanner with an added spring reverb tank feature.


Scott said:
Quote:
I've always said if a church doesn't have a Hammond B-3, it doesn't have an organ.


Scott, churches were in fact the reason for the success of the Hammond organ. Hammond installed at least 50,000 organs in churches figuring them to be his target market.

I was inspired for the Hammond from church, myself.

The Hammond today or at least its clone is still being played like heaven in many a church.


Since this thread started out with Groove Holmes, here below is more discovered rare live video footage of Groove, from the same Spain released 1980 footage but without the announcements.

However be prepared for some VCR tape glitches and accompanying static noise so appologies for this as not much Groove videos are in existence, sadly. Also there is some credit subtitles and video effects on this clip....Confused

Groove Holmes plays "The Man I love" and "Bar Wars."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdNIQOgFoPc
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