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Topic: 'Scrapple From The Apple'.... a position exercise. |
Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 27 Jun 2017 7:32 pm |
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This post is for a limited audience, I know, but nevertheless…..
My personal goal is musical expression on the steel guitar through improvisation. Improv is a marriage of knowledge, technique and thought/feeling or whatever you want to call it. The aim is to have the technique and knowledge so imbedded that they are not part of the conscious/meditative music-making process. Well, that’s the aim anyway.
For jazz, knowledge of the entire neck is paramount and position exercises are one way to work towards that. This exercise uses the A section of Parker’s ‘Scrapple From The Apple’, a bebop standard. The angular melody is difficult for various reasons…. syncopation, intervallic leaps and unusual phrasing. I kept revising the fingering as I worked on it in different positions with string skips and change in bar direction being the major problems to overcome. It might get some more revision still.
It is quite a workout. F is a common jazz key so I stick with that. I probably wouldn’t use the first example all that much as, personally, I try to avoid open strings. This is because I want to develop an understanding of the neck that can be instantly transposed to another key at a different position. But that is not to say that I don’t recognize the uses of open strings. Mike Neer’s “Straight, No Chaser’ arrangement is very clever!
This exercise is designed to increase familiarity with the neck. The chord progression is the A section of ‘Rhythm’ changes and is fairly simple. V to I is the core of it. However, if the tune was called on the gig/jam, my first choice would probably not be any of these but, instead, up an octave as shown in the chart at the bottom.
Hope this is of interest to some. This idea of repeating the same melody in different positions can be applied usefully to any tune for neck familiarity. Maybe a simpler melody would be more useful but this one just cropped up in my practice.
For those that don’t know it, this is the tune.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8Q2_vESwlA
As always, email me for a better copy of these.
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2017 9:59 pm
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Great stuff! Playing a tune that especially is a set of ii V's in multiple places is very very good practice for playing jazz, something a lot of players ignore. Good work, indeed.
One thing though - although the bridge is the bridge of I Got Rhythm, Scrapple is based on the changes of Honeysuckle Rose
I think these kind of posts are very helpful - thank you!
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Einar Baldursson
From:
Stockholm, Sweden
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Posted 27 Jun 2017 11:48 pm
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Looks good, thanks for sharing. I used to do exercises like this on the standard guitar using CAGED or Pat Martinos Activity Zones. I am yet to discover a system of organisation as simple and all-encompassing as those two on the sixth-based tuning but using chord shapes as reference seems to be the ticket.
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Wherever You Go, There You Are |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 1:18 am
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Einar, I found this system quite helpful because it can be viewed very similarly to using movable pentatonic scale positions on standard guitar. It's gotten a bit foggy in my memory as I've strayed from steel improv over the last few years ...
http://dennysguitars.homestead.com/lessonsindex1.html
For more discussion about this than you'd ever want to read, search "Threadzilla" here on the forum.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 2:01 am
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Thanks for that, Andy. Phew! He certainly is wordy! I think he may be getting at the chord/scale theory that prevails in academic jazz study these days, but it isn't really that clear to me.
If the game is 'learn it all then forget it and play', then I think I would probably be forgetting his spiel before I finished learning it. It really is dense stuff. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 2:12 am
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"Wordy" is almost an understatement. My favorite line from that whole seemingly endless discussion about this site was from Jeff Au Hoy ... (paraphrasing) ...
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| The difference between making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich yourself and programming a robot to do it. |
Modal theory for jazz guitar was never very useful to me in the real world. Where I found Denny's info helpful was in breaking his chart down to visual patterns - the way many of us first learned to improvise on the guitar in a rock and blues context. That way, I didn't need to worry about the theory and could just improvise knowing that the notes (and chromatic neighbor notes) would all work over a given chord.
But I digress .... your Parker tab is extremely cool! I was always partial to this version of Scrapple: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0pLNLUtx8A
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 3:33 am
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I may be a bit biased, but so much cooler in C6.
It's funny, some of you may not think so, but I see A6 as C6's conservative older brother, where C6 is still the frat boy. 
Re the whole modal discussion: looking at non-pedal, it's a real uphill road trying to improvise in the language of bebop on it, at least for me, without being repetitive. I know there are people capable of doing it, but it's a really difficult style to pull off. The modal approach helps to frame the harmony into digestible parts and give you other options for improvising. I don't mean playing a different chord scale or mode over every chord, but choosing a mode, such as a Dorian, and finding a melody in there with the help of all the other notes of the neck for color.
This has become very useful for me, as my mind can't process a lot of fast chord changes individually. I need to know where it's starting and where it's finishing. Talking about this too much makes my eyes glaze over. It's more helpful for me if I just sit down and start experimenting. It's great to have a looper pedal for this.
Christopher, one of my hobbies is trying to identify contrafacts.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 5:06 am
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| Thank you - that's always been a favorite of mine on "Spanish" guitar, and I'm off to try it on steel. |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 5:14 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
I may be a bit biased, but so much cooler in C6.
It's funny, some of you may not think so, but I see A6 as C6's conservative older brother, where C6 is still the frat boy.
...
The modal approach helps to frame the harmony into digestible parts and give you other options for improvising. I don't mean playing a different chord scale or mode over every chord, but choosing a mode, such as a Dorian, and finding a melody in there with the help of all the other notes of the neck for color.
......
Christopher, one of my hobbies is trying to identify contrafacts. |
And this is a jazz contrafact, Christopher Woitach nailed it.
As to a modal approach, well:
I am not a fan of the chord-scale approach in jazz, I learned from older players that used the chord arpeggio approach - you learn the chords of the tune, play over them, rather than use an arbitrary scale for each and every chord.
The other thing that helps is to find your tonal centers or key areas - where the music really changes from on tonic to another.
Other than a couple of color tones like the Db, F# and G#, the head is just in the key of F major, with a Bdim7 passing chord.
The IGR bridge is just a series of secondary dominants, so each chord is just the V7 of the implied tonal center.
A7 is the V7 of D
D7 is the V7 of G, etc.
And last,
I still like A6 better than C6. I have no idea why, but I guess I am not a "frat boy" and like the "conservative" way A6 works. But to each their own! |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 5:18 am
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| David M Brown wrote: |
I still like A6 better than C6. I have no idea why, but I guess I am not a "frat boy" and like the "conservative" way A6 works. But to each their own! |
I don't know why I said that, just seemed right to me at the moment. Of course, in a conversation it would be plain that I was kidding around.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 5:18 am
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| Andy Volk wrote: |
Modal theory for jazz guitar was never very useful to me in the real world. |
Modal theory only works well for modal jazz!
Most jazz, especially standards and contrafacta tunes written off those chord changes, use the harmonic vocabulary of the "Great American Songbook", which is really that of the Romantic period of classical music.
So yes you can apply modal approaches, but like I mentioned, what works best in jazz is the per-Aebersold system of playing off the actual chord arpeggios of the song.
Modal and chord-scale approaches have value and are well worth knowing, but only after you have learned to solo through chord changes.
So learn your chords! |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 5:22 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| David M Brown wrote: |
I still like A6 better than C6. I have no idea why, but I guess I am not a "frat boy" and like the "conservative" way A6 works. But to each their own! |
I don't know why I said that, just seemed right to me at the moment. Of course, in a conversation it would be plain that I was kidding around. |
Actually there is a truth in that comment!
I sure wish I could like C6 better, but I keep going back to A6. All the "cool kids" seem to play C6 these days.
BTW, I rarely play bop on steel, I've played jazz on regular guitar since I was a kid in New Orleans (jazz is my folk music), and would grab my regular guitar for this sort of music more likely than my steel. Maybe this is a good excuse to change that pattern. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 5:22 am
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The way you describe, David, of learning the arpeggios and chords and thinking along those lines, is a vertical approach (stacking harmonies) as opposed to a horizontal approach of playing melodies through the changes. I think you need to have both approaches to be a good improviser. I'm definitely not there yet.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 5:28 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| The way you describe, David, of learning the arpeggios and chords and thinking along those lines, is a vertical approach (stacking harmonies) as opposed to a horizontal approach of playing melodies through the changes. I think you need to have both approaches to be a good improviser. I'm definitely not there yet. |
Well, you do, and I was not complete in my explanation - you use the notes of the chord arpeggios as the basics, but you do have to play real flowing melodic lines, not just outline the chords.
It takes knowing the harmonies AND having a good sense of melody to play jazz that way.
Not to mention telling a story, sounding like yourself, using thematic ideas and developing ideas, etc.
The best teacher I had for this style was the grand old man, Ellis Marsalis. |
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Einar Baldursson
From:
Stockholm, Sweden
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 5:32 am
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I was taught the modal system when I started out and it works well for certain music but I feel it just gets in the way when playing bebop and earlier styles of jazz. As David mentions arpeggios are more useful. More specifically - ornamented arpeggios which include surround notes are very common but the real key involves locating all the guide tones, that is the 3rds and the 7ths of every chord and using them as a starting point along with the key-center parent scale and the melody of the tune for a more linear perspective. There is a lot more that can be said on this subject but this a very basic approach that seems to do the trick. The guide tones are also great for comping so perhaps they could be the basis of a CAGED-like system for sixth tunings...
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Wherever You Go, There You Are |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 5:41 am
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| Einar Baldursson wrote: |
More specifically - ornamented arpeggios which include surround notes are very common but the real key involves locating all the guide tones, that is the 3rds and the 7ths of every chord and using them as a starting point along with the key-center parent scale and the melody of the tune for a more linear perspective.
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Well put and spot on. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 5:44 am
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Guy, with regard to using open strings: I think when you look at the music you want to play and at the instrument you are playing, it makes a lot of sense to understand the limitations and benefits of playing that instrument. In experimenting with a lot of different ways to play something, you pay attention to articulation. Open strings are a secret weapon for me. Sometimes, like on Straight No Chaser, I'll exaggerate the usage, and other times it's just for a chromatic note in the middle of a run. However, it's all been done before, nothing new under the sun.
After playing some jazz guitar for many years, I have had to develop a different approach on lap steel. Still working it out, but it's coming together.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 5:46 am
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However you're getting from A to Z Mike, I really enjoy hearing it. The listener, of course, doesn't give a damn if we're mentally building Notre Dam in our heads, they only care if what comes out of the instrument sounds good. Personally, I can't deal well with tons of chord changes flying by. I too need to see where things are going and have a strategy to navigate my way.
Years ago, I thought I might want to play fast jazz passages on lap steel and then, when I finally heard folks do it, I realized it wasn't my goal anymore. It seemed to fight the character off the instrument.
One strategy that's hard to beat is using arpeggios for nailing the chord changes (as mentioned above) but I agree with Mike that real improvising takes into account scaler and chordal approaches as well as playing off and varying the melody. Then you have players like Stan Getz and Paul Desmond who seem tied-in to some celestial stream of pure melody and can effortlessly spin out gorgeous variation. One of the secrets to Getz is playing is that he could begin his phrases on any subdivision of the beat and land like a cat at the finish. I can understand and appreciate this ability intellectually, but it eludes me to have any hope off doing it.
The A6th/C6th joke was pretty funny, Mike. After years of standard guitar, I find a certain comfort in always having an E on top most of the time regardless of tuning.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 6:10 am
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In terms of the arpeggio and chord approach, extremely valuable because of the nature of the tuning with its built in chords. I tend to look at triads and superimposing and combining them to form new mini scales. It is also very helpful for me to use pentatonic scales.
Like I said, a lot of times I will ignore certain chord changes and come up with a substitution that might sum it up in a different way. The goal is to stretch out the ear to hear things further away, but make them sound natural.
Ellis Marsalis was an outstanding musician. I only have one CD, but it was Homecoming with Eddie Harris, and they really get down on it.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 6:21 am
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| Andy Volk wrote: |
Years ago, I thought I might want to play fast jazz passages on lap steel and then, when I finally heard folks do it, I realized it wasn't my goal anymore. It seemed to fight the character off the instrument.
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Perhaps that's why I don't play much bebop on lap steel. It works so well on guitar, and sure great steel players do it well....but then I think of the nahenahe sweet Hawaiian tones and I wonder "why bother", just play bop on guitar and lap steel music on lap steel. |
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Einar Baldursson
From:
Stockholm, Sweden
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 6:29 am
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| David M Brown wrote: |
| Andy Volk wrote: |
Years ago, I thought I might want to play fast jazz passages on lap steel and then, when I finally heard folks do it, I realized it wasn't my goal anymore. It seemed to fight the character off the instrument.
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Perhaps that's why I don't play much bebop on lap steel. It works so well on guitar, and sure great steel players do it well....but then I think of the nahenahe sweet Hawaiian tones and I wonder "why bother", just play bop on guitar and lap steel music on lap steel. |
So true! Although I gladly confess my love for Joaquin Murpheys playing I generally prefer the slower stuff on steel.
As for the superimposed triads and pentatonics Mike mentioned they are indeed an excellent tool easily available in our tuning that help to get access to modern jazz vocabulary, say Wayne Shorter and onwards.
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Wherever You Go, There You Are |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 7:20 am
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| Einar Baldursson wrote: |
As for the superimposed triads and pentatonics Mike mentioned they are indeed an excellent tool easily available in our tuning that help to get access to modern jazz vocabulary, say Wayne Shorter and onwards. |
Superimposed triads, eh?
Sounds like a job for the mighty B11 tuning! |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 9:47 am
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I love this thread! It is absolutely true that straight ahead jazz that isn't specially modal is tonal, and the connections from one chord to the next, and making lines out of it, is actually the point. Bebop has much more in common with Bach than So What, although both approaches have their place.
I've been having my students get the book "Connecting Chords Through Linear Harmony", by Bert Ligon. It really clears up a lot in the playing of ii V I music
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 9:56 am
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This post is gold dust from extremely knowledgable music theorists.
Thanks Guys.
I am now learning chromatic scales and Bebop scales and My gosh its a lot to digest.
I'm finding that chromatic and bebop scales more useful than pentatonic and standard major modes. But landing on the right notes and switching scales for chords is a ball ache.
But I am going for Bebop goals. Arpeggios I am not going to lie but they are a beast to do at speed with string skips and more complex chords. Seems that this is going to take years of hard study.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 28 Jun 2017 10:22 am
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There's no half-assed way to play jazz (I know, I tried). Whatever route you take to get there - and there a number of valid approaches - there's no getting around that it takes years of time, desire and commitment to achieve that goal. That doesn't mean you can't sound good in the early stages if you pay attention to timing, tone and playing around the melody, but to be a fluent speaker, jazz like any other language, takes a lot of time and immersing yourself in the language surrounded by fluent speakers. The same is true of any genre of music IMHO. Playing beautiful Hawaiian music takes an equally high level of commitment as playing bebop; it's just the end game that differs.
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Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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