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Author Topic:  Struggling With My A6 Offsets
Dana Duplan

 

From:
Ramona, CA
Post  Posted 1 Jun 2017 6:59 pm    
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I have a Peterson StroboPlus HD--I'm happy with the offsets I programmed on my E13th tuning, but I'm struggling with my A6 neck. I've tried some of the recommendations on the Peterson site, as well as some suggestions here--none worked for me. I ultimately went to tuning by ear and then storing those offsets--sounded great at home but not so much on the gig--so I redid things and thought I was good to go--I heard some live recordings of a gig the other day and I'm not satisfied.

I'm assuming that offsets may vary by a player's technique and gear and there's no one size fits all? Any suggestions what to try? Or is anyone with a great ear willing to listen to a couple of vids to critique and make suggestions (I'd rather not post here)
Thx
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 1 Jun 2017 9:05 pm    
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I tune A and E to +5 cents, and C# and F# to -5 cents. Same in both octaves. Not perfect, but it seems to work well in band situations.
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Dana Duplan

 

From:
Ramona, CA
Post  Posted 1 Jun 2017 10:09 pm    
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b0b wrote:
I tune A and E to +5 cents, and C# and F# to -5 cents. Same in both octaves. Not perfect, but it seems to work well in band situations.


Thx bOb-I'll play around with that--I've been tuning my A's straight up w/o offset
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Stefan Robertson


From:
Hertfordshire, UK
Post  Posted 2 Jun 2017 1:01 am    
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Try John Ely's suggestion usually his are pretty bang on.

http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/tunings/my_tunings.php
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Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com

"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist"
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David M Brown


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 2 Jun 2017 6:44 am    
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b0b wrote:
I tune A and E to +5 cents, and C# and F# to -5 cents. Same in both octaves. Not perfect, but it seems to work well in band situations.


If the rest of the band is tuned to 12 tone equal temperament tuning, then shouldn't the steel guitar also be in the same tuning, not "sweetened"?

I know a lot of people want to make the notes more like pure tuning, but I never saw the point if you are playing with other 12TET instruments.

Ely makes some good points, but this is an issue I have always had trouble with, even in the regular guitar world.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 2 Jun 2017 7:12 am    
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Truth be told, as soon as a guitarist presses his fingers against a fretboard he's no longer in equal temperament. Worse, the variance is random. We can do better. A sweetened temperament sounds best because of the physics of sound waves. ET instruments only work because the mind resolves similarities into the physical harmonies.

If you are closer to a pure harmony, you will make the whole band sound better, just as harmony singers do with their voices. Think about it - nobody can sing harmony in equal temperament, but good harmony singers always make a band sound great.
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Roger Fletcher

 

From:
United Kingdom
Post  Posted 2 Jun 2017 7:27 am    
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FWIW, these are the offsets I use for A13. They are based on the sixth comma meantone temperament.

E -1.6
C# -6.5
A 0
F# -4.9
E -1.6
C# -6.5
A 0
G +3.3
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Andy DePaule


From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
Post  Posted 2 Jun 2017 8:55 am     Will try that
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Thanks Bob,
I'll try it when I get back to my 8 string laptop which I left in Saigon.
I've been tuning to A6th with the A & E to pitch and dropping the C# & F# down about 8 to 9, but it's seems a little off in open strings when I play with the band.

I'm not in a standard A6 but like this High to low; E C# A F# E C# A E A.
I like doing this because then I can play Boom Chuck Boom Chuck rhythm chord on the four low strings.

Started out with C6th because I had that old Jerry Byrd book, but switched out to A6th because I liked the high E note on top.
The other advantage for me was that anything I'd find in this worked well on my pedal steels in E9 with the pedals down.
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 2 Jun 2017 9:45 am     Re: Will try that
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Andy De Paule wrote:
I've been tuning to A6th with the A & E to pitch and dropping the C# & F# down about 8 to 9, but it's seems a little off in open strings when I play with the band.

Putting them on both sides of the ET centerline solves that "open string" problem. That's why Jeff Newman famously changed his chart for E9, raising everything a few cents.

If you want to get picky about it, use these simple meantone offsets:

E +2.5
C# -5
A +5
F# -2.5
etc.

Or you could add 3.25 cents to all of Roger's numbers (above), which are a bit closer to ET. It all depends on how sweet you want to get, how accurate your tuner is, and how good your eyes are at reading it. The main point is to average the 4 numbers of the 6th chord to 0 if you want those open strings to sound in tune with the band.
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Andy DePaule


From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
Post  Posted 2 Jun 2017 11:20 am     Thanks Bob.
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Very Happy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.
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David M Brown


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 2 Jun 2017 6:18 pm    
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Roger Fletcher wrote:
FWIW, these are the offsets I use for A13. They are based on the sixth comma meantone temperament.

E -1.6
C# -6.5
A 0
F# -4.9
E -1.6
C# -6.5
A 0
G +3.3


Thanks for understanding that this is NOT 12 tone Equal temp. tuning.

Mean tone was very popular as an organ tuning, among other things, in the past. Modern electronic pipe organs have this as one of the tuning options.

It's great as long as you do not get too far from the home key of the tuning.
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David M Brown


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 2 Jun 2017 6:21 pm     Re: Will try that
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b0b wrote:
[
It all depends on how sweet you want to get, how accurate your tuner is, and how good your eyes are at reading it. The main point is to average the 4 numbers of the 6th chord to 0 if you want those open strings to sound in tune with the band.


I do understand, and appreciate what you guys are doing.

I'm still not convinced trained singers cannot sing in various tunings. The ones I went to school with could.

"how sweet you want to get"

Ah, there's the rub...how much do you want to be in real 12th-root-of-2 equal temperament tuning, or how much do you want those 3rds to be closer to the pitch of natural harmonics.

Besides, what's vibrato good for anyway? Very Happy
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Andy DePaule


From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
Post  Posted 2 Jun 2017 7:23 pm     Boom Chuck Boom Chuck rhythm chord, My error
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Boom Chuck Boom Chuck rhythm chord, My error, it should have been;
Boom Chuck Bum Chuck Boom Chuck Bum Chuck Boom Chuck Bum Chuck.
That gets the Bass 1 and 5 alternating and the "Chuck" is the third and high fifth note of the chord on the back beat.
Ha ha ha.... What was I thunkin'? Whoa! Laughing Very Happy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 2 Jun 2017 8:13 pm    
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David M Brown wrote:
Mean tone was very popular as an organ tuning, among other things, in the past. Modern electronic pipe organs have this as one of the tuning options.

It's great as long as you do not get too far from the home key of the tuning.

Suppose you're tuned in A6th meantone or just intonation, and a song is in Eb. You are out of tune with "the home key of the tuning" and open string notes will almost certainly sound wrong. But all of the notes at the 6th, 11th and 13th frets, where you spend most of your time in Eb, will be nicely in tune.

Our "home key" is not based on the instrument's tuning, as it is on a pipe organ. It's where we choose to put the bar.
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David M Brown


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 3 Jun 2017 10:39 am    
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b0b wrote:
[
Our "home key" is not based on the instrument's tuning, as it is on a pipe organ. It's where we choose to put the bar.


Where's the "like" button?
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Stefan Robertson


From:
Hertfordshire, UK
Post  Posted 4 Jun 2017 3:52 am    
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So after spending a few different months trying to figure this all out ET is overrated.

Since there aren't many instruments that use them.

Think Classical instruments.

Or more importantly most recordings of the players we all want to sound like didn't use them so despite having the ability to ET on my Peterson I have gone back to JI as it sounds good in all situations.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com

"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist"
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