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Topic: Cabinet drop |
Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2016 5:51 am |
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The best cure for cabinet drop is to forgetaboutit.
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 22 Nov 2016 6:46 am
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| Bill Dobkins wrote: |
| The best cure for cabinet drop is to forgetaboutit. |
I find that hard to do ... much easier to playaroundit  |
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Jay Friedrich
From:
Dallas, TX
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Posted 29 May 2017 10:49 pm
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I hope it's okay to bump this thread. I'm surprised that this seems to be such a contentious issue.
I never noticed it on my S10 MSA Classic, although I'm sure there's some.
I briefly owned a Remington that looked brand new, but had so much cabinet drop as to be unmusical. Just pushing down the A pedal would knock everything else out 14 or more cents.
I had to eat the shipping fee and send it back to the seller so I never figured out what the problem was.
Later on I was told that some of the Remington pedal steels had this problem... I wish someone had mentioned it before I bought it.
Assuming that it won't be a problem for someone else because it's not a problem for you is like assuming everyone likes the same shoes you do.
I think it's a variable that can and should be measured. It would encourage manufacturers to pay more attention to it, and then let the buyers decide whether it matters to them. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 30 May 2017 5:37 am
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| Jay Friedrich wrote: |
I hope it's okay to bump this thread. I'm surprised that this seems to be such a contentious issue.
I never noticed it on my S10 MSA Classic, although I'm sure there's some.
I briefly owned a Remington that looked brand new, but had so much cabinet drop as to be unmusical. Just pushing down the A pedal would knock everything else out 14 or more cents.
I had to eat the shipping fee and send it back to the seller so I never figured out what the problem was.
Later on I was told that some of the Remington pedal steels had this problem... I wish someone had mentioned it before I bought it.
Assuming that it won't be a problem for someone else because it's not a problem for you is like assuming everyone likes the same shoes you do.
I think it's a variable that can and should be measured. It would encourage manufacturers to pay more attention to it, and then let the buyers decide whether it matters to them. |
Jay, a 14 cent drop is a lot and can't imagine it being that much unless something else is wrong somewhere. I have determined that the structure of the guitar has little to do with cabinet drop. I just set up an Emmons GS-10 student model for a friend. It's nothing but a box with strings on it and a wooden pedal bar and has very little cabinet drop. I wondered about it so I put a meter to it and just barely makes needle move. Think that sorta blows the theory of all these braces and stuff that are put under guitars to stop it. Cabinet drop is nothing more than the pressure of pedals pulling down flexing cabinet which in turn cause it to detune so don't understand how a thin wooden box like the GS-10 Emmons and being push pull also I might add, doesn't have tons of drop but it doesn't. Beats me, LOL.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 30 May 2017 7:03 am
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I'm convinced that a lot of cabinet drop comes from continuing to depress the pedals after you hit the stops, and the effort HAS to make something move.
The GS-10 won't deform the stiff box because the wooden pedal rack will deform first.
MSA isolates the pedals from the cab by mounting the front of the cross-shafts, with the pedal pulls and stops, on the rail inside the apron.
I've found that excessive drop is usually some loose fasteners on the underside
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 30 May 2017 7:45 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
I'm convinced that a lot of cabinet drop comes from continuing to depress the pedals after you hit the stops, and the effort HAS to make something move.
The GS-10 won't deform the stiff box because the wooden pedal rack will deform first.
MSA isolates the pedals from the cab by mounting the front of the cross-shafts, with the pedal pulls and stops, on the rail inside the apron.
I've found that excessive drop is usually some loose fasteners on the underside |
I agree Lane, think something underside can cause the problem. Again I'm going to add that cabinet drop doesn't bother me. The whole story is you just need to learn to play in tune whether the cabinet drops or not. I don't think Buddy, Hal, Weldon, Herbie, Lloyd and could go on and on, ever worried about cabinet drop.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 31 May 2017 2:14 pm
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I don't think that screws, dowels and glue is the best method of jointing a cabinet. Full length spline joints would be stiffer. Splines could possibly be carbon graphite flat bar stock.
JB
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Johnny Howington
From:
Lillington, NC
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Posted 17 Dec 2017 6:16 pm cabinet drop
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just might work! thanks John Booth!
I was told one of my guitars has 4 to 7 cents cabinet drop which according to the way it was sounding when pedals were engaged was not pleasing to the ears. Noticeably not in tune. The idea that John Booth mentioned in this subject really helped me get my guitar's sound much better. Just thought I would share in case anyone else is going through some of the same issues I have been going through. If everything in Peterson tuner SE-9: open, pedals, and knees checks perfect sorry, when you engage the pedals you will know if cabinet drop is an issue or not. Guitar will be out of tune! |
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Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 17 Dec 2017 7:59 pm
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| I play a Derby D10. When I bought the guitar a long long time ago , Charlie told me that the guitar has very little if any at all cabinet drop. He was correct , there is a little , very little , but not enough to notice with a band. |
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Stephen Williams
From:
from Wales now in Berkeley,Ca, USA
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Posted 17 Dec 2017 8:19 pm
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One idea would be to get a 36" + threaded rod and put it at the bottom of the rail. Tighten nuts at each end. This would put compression back on the bottom of the rail which is under tension. this would counteract the flexing of the deck/cabinet.
It would be a simple task to do to see if it had any effect and warrant finding a way to install it elegantly. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 17 Dec 2017 9:25 pm
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Stephen: Your idea might reduce cabinet drop, but it would probably also have an affect on the tone of the instrument. Could be positive or negative. I'm not willing to make my steel be the guinea pig.
However; it just occurred to me that perhaps a person could test this in a non-destructive manner. I can envision a bar that can be tightened, essentially a very long c clamp. Somebody probably makes such a thing.
Just checked a bit on the net. A 36 inch bar clamp is what I have in mind. They seem to be a common item at lots of big box hardware type stores.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 18 Dec 2017 4:27 am
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When I did all the "destructive testing" on my Dekley - almost 30 years ago, I didn't bother about downward force on the body/frame at all since the Dekley frame didn't give one iota under pedal pressure. I focused on the parts holding the strings tensioned - the changer and keyhead, and found that they "gave" slightly under varying string tension.
So, I tensioned up the bottom of the changer - which holds the stop-plate on a Dekley (a unique detail on those steels) - to the bottom of the frame under the keyhead, using two 1/3 inch thick threaded rods.
When tensioned just enough the "body-drop detuning" dropped from about 5cents to below 2cents right there. As the threaded rods was "in air" almost their entire length, they started to vibrate with the strings via the bridge/changer and added sympathetically to the total body-tone. Sounded good to my ears, also when amplified.
Those threaded rods got in the way of other mechanical modifications underneath, and the new, laminated, neck I put on did a better job both for reducing "body drop detuning" and improving overall tone and sustain in that instrument. So, the threaded rods are gone, but there are times when I miss that rich tone they created.
My conclusion was, and still is after having tested similar "bottom tension" variants on other steel brands over the years, that downward pedal pressure play a minimal role in "body drop detuning". Nearly all detuning is caused because bridge/changer and keyhead "give / flex" in their attachments to top-plate/sound-board under varying string tension above these components.
That's why the counterforce on latest Emmons steels work so well for counter-acting "body drop detuning", as they literally keep the bridge/changer upright under varying string tension. |
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Bobby Bonds Sr.
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 8:44 am drop
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| Get a G.F.I. All metal frame. I think you could stand on it and it wouldn't move. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 9:07 am Re: drop
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| Bobby Bonds Sr. wrote: |
| Get a G.F.I. All metal frame. I think you could stand on it and it wouldn't move. |
Sorry, have one, and it detunes more than nearly all of my other PSGs. |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 5:38 pm
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they discovered a cabinet drop after the invention of electronic tuners ... before then they would usually just play their guitars in tune...
_________________
https://steelguitarsonline.com/ |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 10:01 pm Cabinet Drop
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I have carved and built furniture, Muzzle Loading Rifles and many other projects out of wood and metal for about 60 years. Any species of wood changes with its growing environment. Water, Nutrition, and Sunlight, Changes the density and strength of any wood. Every piece of maple wood has its own personality when a carving chisel is put to it.
When something is constructed till it can be put in a case and carried by one person, Limits how much wood and metal can be put in it to eliminate Cabinet
Drop.
There is a picture on a previous post here on the SGF that shows a guy playing a steel with a 5th leg. In the middle of the cabinet and the pedal bar. Wonder if it has cabinet drop. Just thoughts of a tinkerer. |
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Stephen Williams
From:
from Wales now in Berkeley,Ca, USA
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 11:00 pm
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Paul, threaded rod is cheap that's why i suggested it. A pipe clamp is a good idea though. It would be a non-destructive test. Maybe i should go ahead and try it as per georg. Maybe the rod passes through the end plate and is adjacent to the rails but is suspended in air.
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 21 Dec 2017 11:26 pm
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| NOTE: I did not tension up the cabinet, only the changer. That is AFAIK only possible on a Dekley, as all other PSGs I have seen have the stop-plate attached to the end-plate. |
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Fred Rushing
From:
Odin, IL, USA
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Posted 22 Dec 2017 3:48 pm Wat cabinet drop
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If you have a nice left hand you won't hear the drop anyway.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Fred |
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