Help Me Choose an E9 Copedant

Jay Friedrich · From: Dallas, TX

Howdy, I'm new here and also still somewhat new to pedal steel, although I've owned one for over 20 years.

My first steel was a Dekley S10 push-pull that was nearly impossible to keep in tune. It had an Emmons set up, with the raise and lower E's on the left leg.

I nearly gave up, but a few years later I found an MSA S10 Classic all-pull, also with 3 and 4, and the MSA stays in tune, so it helped rekindle the flame...

However, on the MSA, the raise and lower E's were both on the right leg. At first it was awkward, but I soon found it was more comfortable, especially when playing with the A pedal down, as the lower the E's gives a minor 9 chord.

That minor 9 drop is nearly impossible for me with the lower the E's on the LKR...

Is that just my poor technique or is that a change traditional Emmons' players simply avoid? I know you can get the same note on the 2nd string...

Anyhow, I was looking at Paul Franklin's E9 copedant, and I noticed that he puts the lower the Es on the RKL, same as my MSA, but he raises the E's with the LKL, the same as the traditional Emmons.

So now I'm rethinking my old MSA, and wondering if I should move the raise the E's to the LKL, and leave the lower the E's on the RKL, ala Paul Franklin.

If it was just the MSA, I'd probably leave it alone, but I recently acquired another steel, a Carter U12 with 9 and 5, and this one has both E's on the LEFT leg, same as my old Dekley...

I really do miss having the lower E's on the right leg, so leaving the lower on the left leg isn't a good option for me.

The more I think about it, the more I think I could get used to having the raise the E's on the left leg, as long as the lower E's were on the right leg...

For you other players who own more than one steel, do you have the raise/lower the E's in different places depending on the tuning, or is it more common to have them in the same place?

That makes me wonder whether I should revisit the MSA and put the raise the E's on the left leg... I'm thinking I should try that change on the MSA first, as I'm more familiar with the MSA.

As you can see, I'm kind of thinking in circles here!

I know I don't want the lower the E's on the left leg, but I want a relatively standard copedant, as I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel... At least not yet!

Thank you for taking your time to read all this... I thank you in advance for your suggestions and guidance.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

The short answer is do what you like. I raise the Es with my left knee and lower them with my right, and I don't think I'm a bad person. This topic never wears out.
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Tim Russell · From: Pennsylvania, USA

My E raise & lower is traditional Emmons, LKL & LKR on both of my current steels.

I've had guitars with the E lower on RKL, just like Mike Johnson's setup. I like it either way, I can't say I really have a preference. I do like experimenting, though.

If one has the time, and their guitar is easily changed, I think it can be beneficial to switch things around every so often & experiment with new knee positions, others' copedent setups.

In doing so, we stumble over new licks & combinations that were hiding right under our noses.

As far as a "standard" copedent...does such a thing exist anymore, lol?

There is indeed the "traditional" Emmons setup, as I call it, but at this point there are and have been so many pro players out there with different styles, tastes, copedents, that even the steel builders build their guitars with differing setups, particularly on the right knees.
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Most Emmons setups lower the Es with LKR, not LKL.
If you plan on either a whole tone drop of 6 or whole tone raise of 7, it won't matter whether the E changes are on left or right, but keep them together, as both that change and the whole tone drop of 2 work well with the E lowers: if you split the E changes, one of the two will then be on the same knee as the E lowers.
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Dave Meis · From: Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA

I've always had the Es on the right.. out to lower, in to raise. I'm sure better players have them on the left, split ect., but I learned with them on the right, and though have tried to leave them on the left as I've acquired other steels, I find it's hard for me now to keep the A+B fully down and move that same knee for the Es when they are on the same leg. If I used the raise ONLY with the A pedal, it'd be easier, but I use the Es as 'melodic' notes as well, and the freedom of having them on the 'other' leg works better for the combinations I use most often. Obviously, it works great for a LOT of players, but I don't want to start over now. Smile

If I split them, I'd definitely put the raise on the left. Good luck!

Jay Friedrich · From: Dallas, TX

Tommy Mc · From: Middlesex VT

If there is anything approaching a standard E9 copedent, it would be with both E's on the left. It makes good ergonomic sense, for various reasons, some of us prefer a different arrangement.

I started out on instruments that didn't have any levers on the right. The E lower was RKL, and that's what I got used to, there was no E raise at all. When I got my MSA S-10, it was set up with both E's on the left. I tried them that way, but eventually moved the E lower back to RKL. My copedent is now (by coincidence) the same as the one listed for Johan Jansen: https://b0b.com/tunings/jj.html

I don't know of any law that says both E's have to be on the same leg.

Ben Waligoske · From: Denver, CO

For what it's worth, on both of my guitars I do exactly what you're describing (and what Paul F does) with the E's - RKL lowers, and LKL raises. I find this a very intuitive way to move around the neck personally (and I started on standard Emmons) but as others have said, to each their own!

However, I do reverse a couple changes from Pauls setup in that I have a whole tone raise on strings 1 and 7 on my LKR, and the half-stop feel for string 2 and full-tone lower on string 9 are on RKR.

This has worked for me overall as I've found it to be a more "point and shoot" copedent, i.e., your knees move in the direction that the pitch of the strings (at least regarding strings 1 & 7, and the E lowers) are going a bit more... and having the E raises on LKL still makes the A pedal + LKL combo (for a major chord or bouncing in and out of 7th chord feels) easy too.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Just keep in mind that knee lever positions for raises and lowers is not just about the knee lever raise or lower, it's also about being ergonomically matched to the A,B, A+B or perhaps C Peds.

And no, they do not have to be on the same leg, but they are traditionally placed there as the "common positions" due to being used frequently with the AB peds respectfully.

The E raise needs to be comfortable to use with the A pedal and AB pedal while the E lower needs to be comfortable to use with just the B Ped or the AB together. We don't want to fight those levers .

I'm not the one who made this up ! Smile

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J R Rose · From: Keota, Oklahoma, USA

I think in the early days, someone correct me but Sho-Bud came from factory with E's lowered by RKL and 2nd.& 9th. string lowered by RKR, no half stop. There was no left knees on a stock guitar from factory. If you played long enough in your early days that memory fix will still be their in your mind. I have tried to change that but I still will push a lever like I had in my beginning years. I just cannot help it no matter how much I practice. Just my $.02 worth, J.R.
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Jay Friedrich · From: Dallas, TX

Jay Friedrich · From: Dallas, TX

One last question... For players who put the lower E's on the LKR, any tips for getting that minor 9 sound?

I have wide feet, so that might be part of my problem... It's very hard for me to hit the A pedal alone and then hit the lower E's on the LKR.

By putting the lower's E's on the RKL instead of LKR, I can get that minor 9 sound much easier, but what other common chord changes am I sacrificing?

Since a majority of players still put the lower E's on the LKR, I would like to hear the specific reasons against putting it on the RKL.

I'm not making any value judgements here, I'm just trying to objectively weigh the trade-offs between the two.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Thank you Tony! That's exactly why I don't care for the lower E's on the left leg. It's very awkward for me to hold the A pedal down while simultaneously bringing the left knee to the right to drop the Es.
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Jay, I didn't imply that the LKR was to be used with the A pedal alone, it is commonly used with the B ped and the AB peds together which is a different left leg position than the A ped by itself.

It may also be possible that the LKR knee lever ( lower E's) is physically positioned wrong for you. As stated, typically we do not use the E Lowers alone with the A ped , that is far from a common move and yes a very awkward movement, but rather the AB peds together which is a different left leg/ankle positioning. The E raise is commonly used with the outside A PED as well as AB peds.

Lowering E's ( LKR) along with the A ped ( outside ) is certainly not a common move. May I ask what are you attempting to accomplish with that move ?

But nonetheless, many folks have placed the E lower over on the right leg, not for the reasons sited here but rather to have a smooth transition from the lower to the raise. I did that for awhile then came to realize that as kool as the transition was, "for me " it was kinda like wasting a knee lever.

I have moved knee levers on a few Steels over the years as they were placed to far apart for me.

But unless I am reading this wrong it appears that you are attempting to lower the E's on the LKR lever while pressing the outside A pedal , thus making your left leg go in two directions at the same time.
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Micky Byrne · From: United Kingdom (deceased)

Hi Jay...I have 2 universals, one is a Carter...You have your E9th there, 3 pedals and the E's raise and lowers on the RK. Then you have your 5 knee levers. Plenty to work on Smile

...then you can take your time to learn your 6th playing dropping and raising your E's on the RK and pedals 4,5,6,7 ....it's all there.Have fun Very Happy

Micky "scars" Byrne U.K.

Tim Russell · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Hi Jay,

I've been playing for so many years, that a lot of the moves are automatic for me, as with most long-time players,I suppose. I had to sit down at the guitar and work with the "A" pedal and E-Eb, which is on my LKR to see what was going on.

I find that I do indeed use that move, and probably a lot, more than I realize. It is not awkward or uncomfortable for me at all. I believe as Tony Prior has suggested, the positioning of your pedals/knees, or possibly where you sit at the guitar has something to do with this.

I personally sit pretty much "on center" at my steels. My LKR is maybe 2" from my leg. The LKL is almost against my leg. I could probably adjust that a bit, but it works, I have gotten used to that spacing. I am a skinny guy, 5'9".

I'm listing all those particulars for your comparison. I don't have any issue at all moving my left leg in "opposite" directions at the same time, "A" pedal only and LKR. And, I'm not "double-jointed" either, lol. It just work, and I do like that minor sound that it produces.

Alternatively, you could pull on the 2nd string & get the same note, but if you are looking for a fluid tone transition of a knee, I guess you need to do whatever works best for you.

As far as I know, one of my all time favorite steel masters, Lloyd Green, still does not lower his 4th string, so if he made it work all these years with the 2nd,...the rest is history!
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Eric Philippsen · From: Central Indiana, USA

I cut my teeth decades ago on a Sho-Bud where E's were lowered with my RKL, or "inside right" as it's sometimes called. Raising E's was on LKL, or "outside left."

Then I switched to a push-pull where both E's were on the left. To this day I am somewhat amazed that I can sit down at a steel with either setup and not think about it.

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