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Topic: Rkr |
Barry Anderson
From: Nevada City, California, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 8:06 am
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Aloha, everyone. This would be my first post on this incredible resource after much reading.
I just received in the mail my first pedal steel - a 3x1 in E9, with the one knee being a right going right.
I've only had the guitar for about a week but I'm starting to find some basic and very usable chord shapes using the three pedals. The knee lever I've found to be much less useful (aside from dropping the open position to a dominant 7th when hitting string 2 and allowing some C6 style runs on strings 1 and 2).
It's setup to what I understand to be standard for an RKR, which is to say it drops string 2 to a D natural and (I think) string 9 to a C#. But, in reviewing Patricia Warnock's chord chart (thanks again forum!) I'm starting to think I might find it more useful if it dropped the E's as if it were an LKR (if I've got my info right).
I also read on this invaluable resource of a forum, that Ben Keith's 3x1 had the knee lever dropping the E's. Him being the primary reason I became interested in the instrument is only fueling my curiosity about this.
So, my questions to y'all are thus...
- What are your thoughts on the versatility of an RKR vs. an LKR, if you had only one?
- It looks like making this change wouldn't be overly complicated, mechanically speaking. Am I a naΓΒ―ve fool to think so?
- Would it really just be best to spend more time with the instrument before even thinking about modifying it?
- And if so, care to share any insight into the value of the RKR, aside from the afore-mentioned dominant 7th change? Because it seems I could get that chord with the LKR as well, but would get more positions in which to play the 1 chord among other things.
Also, it's worth noting that I'm trying to connect with a teacher in the area for some lessons but it's been slow going and I haven't been able to stop myself from trying to make sense of this thing in the meantime.
Thanks in advance for whatever insight you all can offer.
Cheers! |
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Richard Sinkler
From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 8:23 am
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My first tip would be to not get used to calling knee levers by their abbreviations to mean a certain change on the guitar. It was good you defined what changes are on the lever. A lot of people assume that everybody's knee levers do the same as theirs. You did good. By the way, those lever changes are on my RKL.
I would defitely rather lower my E's than the second string. After 46 years of playing, I could easily lose that lever. I have 5 levers, and that is the lever I use the least. It is an important lever to a lot of players. I just never made it an important part of my playing. If I was to add more levers to a one lever guitar, that would be the fourth lever.
Remember, these are only my opinions, and you will receive many others that are just as "right" as I think mine is. Good luck in your steel guitar journey. _________________ Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Lane Gray
From: Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 8:25 am
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The locations of the levers is less important than what they do.
If your guitar is changeable, and I only had one knee, I'd drop 2 to D or C# (retuning it as needed, since a half-stop is likely out of the question) and also 8 to D#. _________________ 2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Barry Anderson
From: Nevada City, California, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 9:24 am
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Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it! |
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Erv Niehaus
From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 9:40 am
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Is your guitar a Sho~Bud Maverick?
It sounds like it what with the knee arrangement. |
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b0b
From: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 9:49 am
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I'm in the minority here - most would agree with Lane (above) or yell "Get more knee levers!"
If you come from a non-pedal background and are comfortable doing bar slants, I recommend raising both E's to F on your lone knee lever. That's how I have my Sho-Bud Maverick set up. _________________ -πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Tim Heidner
From: Groves, TX
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 9:50 am
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I would rather have the E lowers than the 2nd string lowers. |
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Richard Sinkler
From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 10:01 am
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b0b wrote: |
I'm in the minority here - most would agree with Lane (above) or yell "Get more knee levers!"
If you come from a non-pedal background and are comfortable doing bar slants, I recommend raising both E's to F on your lone knee lever. That's how I have my Sho-Bud Maverick set up. |
I find the E lowers much more versatile than the raises. I can sort of bar slant, and I find it easier to slant the bar towards the changer end than the keyhead end.
And definitely, GET MORE KNEE LEVERS! 12 would be good.
There are a lot of members here, and there will be many different opinions here.
You say you are in contact with someone who gives lessons. Have him show you some of the things that these levers do. You might be able to make a better decision on how you want to go. _________________ Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Erv Niehaus
From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 10:20 am
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I find that I can get along quite well with two knee levers: E to F and E to Eb. |
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Barry Anderson
From: Nevada City, California, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 10:43 am
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Thanks again everyone. It's a Fender by Sho-Bud student model, so basically a Maverick. But supposedly much easier to add knees to, and I can already see the value in doing so.
That may be the way I end up going, but pretty much all of my available gear budget went into getting the thing here. So for now, I'm just looking into my options. All of your feedback helps, and I do appreciate it.
Is it crazy to ask y'all to briefly summarize the "moves" that your various recommendations would allow? Or maybe it makes more sense for me to say that (at present, with one whole week under my belt), my primary interest is in tasteful backup - mostly chords, not so much single note runs or hot leads.
I mentioned Ben Keith as a stylistic touchstone. But then again, I'm also a fan of Mooney's work. Would having those goals in mind would cause you to lean one way or another? |
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Craig A Davidson
From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 11:02 am
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Erv Niehaus wrote: |
I find that I can get along quite well with two knee levers: E to F and E to Eb. :D |
Me too Erv. Barry mentioned that the lever has two pulls: the second and ninth. I would loosen things up and swap the rods to strings 4&8 and set them to lower. If the current strings are already lowering which they are it should be a simple action to change. |
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Erv Niehaus
From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 11:05 am
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With the E to F knee lever, you pick up a diminished chord and a seventh chord.
If you use it along with the pedal that raises the G# to A, you get another major chord location.
With the knee lever that lowers the E to Eb, you pick up a minor chord and by adding the pedal that raises the B to C# you can get a 7th chord.
The A,B,F combination gives you an augmented chord and the A,B,E combination gives you a 9th chord. |
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Craig A Davidson
From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 11:14 am
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Erv you are right and to get the D# one could play the secound string. So maybe raise the E's? Not sure if you can do that on a Maverick? |
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Michael Dulin
From: Indiana, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 11:19 am Rkr
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It's easier in some respects to go rkr than rkl. Lowering 2 a half gives you complete scale notes with AB pedals down(very important). Just lowering 8 is your scale moves on string 5&8 up the neck. I wouldn't change a thing on this guitar. Lloyd Green never lowered string 4(used string 2) and he is THE history of recorded steel guitar. When you decide you can probably play this thing you can get a better guitar. You'll want a minimum of 3 pedals/3 knees...lower 4&8, raise 4&8, and lower 2 half or half/whole. Those are essential, more than that is extras depending on what else you want to do. You can do so much with just what you have now if you seek it out you'd be amazed.MD |
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Erv Niehaus
From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 11:21 am
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You can drive from Minnesota to California in a Model
T, also. |
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Jeff Harbour
From: Western Ohio, USA
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Jeff Harbour
From: Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 11:56 am
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b0b wrote: |
I'm in the minority here - most would agree with Lane (above) or yell "Get more knee levers!"
If you come from a non-pedal background and are comfortable doing bar slants, I recommend raising both E's to F on your lone knee lever. That's how I have my Sho-Bud Maverick set up. |
I can see the value in that, as then you would have all three inversions of a major triad in a short motion... and also the ability to create an augmented (ABF) or diminished triad (F only). That still leaves you with one-and-a-half minor triads (one with Pedal A, and the 'half' with the BC combo).
On the other hand, the E-Eb change will be critical in reproducing many classic steel licks, particularly by itself (as a minor) and in conjunction with the B pedal (the Dom 7 that resolves to the open major).
It probably depends on if you want to do more copying, or more creativity. |
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Barry Anderson
From: Nevada City, California, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 1:05 pm
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This is all great information, and I really appreciate it. In many ways, just thinking through this problem is a great exercise for me and I hope expanding my knowledge of what's going on with the instrument.
I went home at lunch and took a look: to clarify, the lever drops 2 and 8, not 2 and 9. So, I am getting one Eb out of the deal, which allows some voicing of the chords I would get if both E's were dropped.
Also, while I can see the E-F raise as being maybe the most versatile for what I'm looking to do at this point, it doesn't look like a raise will be an option without adding a lever or relocating the current one so that it can move left.
But, b0b - you said that you have your Maverick setup to raise. Did you have to relocate the lever in order to do so?
Maybe I should just learn to work with it as is, since there's probably a reason it was setup this way by someone who knows a lot more about the instrument than I do. But I'm a bit of a tinkerer and on some level I just can't help myself from wondering, what if... |
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Tony Prior
From: Charlotte NC
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 1:47 pm
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It's the old " which K lever raise or lower is best" discussion.
First lets clarify something, Loyd initially did not lower 4 with a lever as well as using string 2 I bevel. Frequently, as part of his style and technique. Lowering the E's ,both of them is as relevant as the AB peds on the E9th. All modern production guitars allow us to lower those pesky E's with levers and not have to learn to do accurate bar slants. Interesting, the LDG model guitars , from the beginning, lower and raise BOTH E's on two levers.
IF we are dropping 2 on a 3+1 guitar, yes indeed it's there for a reason as stated above by Michael D. It was not an accident to lower 2 on the early 3+1 guitars, such as a Maverick .
IF there is an opportunity to add another pull, raise or lower, I would drop 8.
Like many here or probably most, I learned initially on a 3+1 Maverick dropping 2 a half step. It is part of my everyday playing along with dropping 2 a whole tone.
I wouldn't try to reinvent the wheel but rather study the changes that are already common. _________________ Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
Last edited by Tony Prior on 25 Apr 2017 1:53 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Jeff Mead
From: London, England
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 1:58 pm
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Isn't there a limitation on Mavericks that each string can only be raised or lowered by one set amount?
Which would mean if the high E is being trained to F# on the C pedal, it can't be raised to F or lowered to Eb as well on a lever? |
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Lane Gray
From: Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 3:05 pm
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Jeff, it's a pull-release. So it's not easy to both raise and lower the same string, but a clever tinkerer can fully load it, but it's not economical.
One CAN make the 4th string hit D#, E, F & F#, but the Maverick wasn't designed to accommodate it easily _________________ 2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bill Moore
From: Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 4:34 pm
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He said it is a Fender student model, not a Maverick. It has a different changer than the Maverick. It actually is a true pull/release. In order to lower both E's and still be able to raise to F# with the C pedal, you have to apply spring tension to the string 4 changer arm. This will locate it in a center, neutral position. From there, you can set up lowers and/or raises with the knee levers and still retain the use of the C pedal. There have been some threads in the past showing Fenders set up like that. Here is a picture of the Fender changer.
It's very similar to the changer on the Stage One, which does have 4 levers with the usual changes. |
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b0b
From: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 5:18 pm
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Barry Anderson wrote: |
Also, while I can see the E-F raise as being maybe the most versatile for what I'm looking to do at this point, it doesn't look like a raise will be an option without adding a lever or relocating the current one so that it can move left.
But, b0b - you said that you have your Maverick setup to raise. Did you have to relocate the lever in order to do so? |
Yes, I moved it to LKL. _________________ -πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Brint Hannay
From: Maryland, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2017 8:05 pm
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Tony Prior wrote: |
Interesting, the LDG model guitars , from the beginning, lower both E's on two levers. |
"On two levers"? I have two LDG's, 1974 round-front and 1979, which I believe (assume) to have had the factory setup when I got them used, and both had LKL: 4 & 8 raise, LKR: 1 & 7 raise to G, RKL: 4 & 8 lower, RKR: 2 lower to D/C#, 9 lower to C#. (Not entirely sure about the 9th string lower in the stock setup.) |
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Mike Perlowin
From: Los Angeles CA
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