| Author |
Topic: The "R" Sound |
David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 7:36 am |
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| As a recording engineer's opinion and I've recorded a lot of Hall of Fame steel players myself and Ricky's steel sounds great in the video by the way and it fits the mix. Kudo's to the engineer. I don't hear the mids rolled off at all. There is plenty of mids on Ricky's steel to cut through the mix and the way it should be. If Ricky rolled them off on his amp then the engineer rolled them back. Let me explain something that might have never crossed a few minds. When you play at home by yourself or even with a band you can get away with most any tone. You can make it as mellow, nasally and syrupy as you like with lots of big boomy bass however if you're playing on a recording those same tones might not work quite as well because they can get lost in the mix. If the steel, lead guitar, piano and rhythm guitars are all in the same frequency range you wind up with a mellow bunch of mud that is sure nuff undesirable to listen to. For that reason good recording engineers try to give each instrument it's own frequency range to create a clear not muddy recording. Sure some frequencys are gonna overlap but most should reside in their own little domain on the frequency graph. Since the E9th neck on a pedal steel and it's harmonics resides in a higher frequency range than say a piano or organ engineers tend to place it in a higher frequency range so it doesn't clash with the other instruments. In my opinion some steels like old Sho-Bud's and old ZB's just have an extremely clear voice to begin with so hardly any EQ is needed because all the Lows, Mids and Highs are all there in the right places. Other steels to my ears have a less defined sound and need some help. Kinda like the difference between a Gibson guitar with humbuckers and a Fender with single coils. The Fender will have a clearer sound but maybe to some folks ears not as pretty of a sound. A couple other things to consider is the human ear doesn't hear flat. It has what audiologist call "The Fletcher Munson Curve" which means the human ear has a natural dip in the mid frequencies. God probably did that to keep people from going nuts. My dad lost his Fletcher Munson Curve and thought everyone was screaming at him at the dinner table when we were not. He had acute mid frequencies in his hearing and the audiologist gave him filters to wear in his ears but he wouldn't ever wear them. So what defines a good sound certainly is a matter of opinion. How well I know when 5 people standing behind me start arguing how to mix something. That's one reason engineers want to know who is the producer and just deal with him. One last thing is most players that are not as accomplished as someone like Ricky Davis would kill everyone's ears playing with that many mids and highs. They are there and I hear them. They cut through the mix very nicely but they are friendly to our ears because of the touch of the master's hands. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 8:28 am
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David that is just an awesome "tutorial" of sound and what it is and how we hear it and what to hear and how to accomplish...and there are many small factors in total output of sound we are hearing and of course the opinions change from here to there.
Savell yes the finished output sound from the sound system..is NOT our finished product...it is someone elses...ha...there's plenty of things I've heard the finished product and i knew that is NOT the way I sounded to myself....ha...so that is really to me the finished product..how do we sound to our self.
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 8:38 am
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| Ricky I love your playing friend. You got a lot of Lloyd Green in your playing that I like. Wish I lived a little closer to hear you guys play live. Texas is a big, big state! |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 9:07 am
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| Savell wrote: |
| ... We also mic the amps so the sound man can help balance the mix. I think you may have directed me to one of the issues causing the problem. I may be getting that overtone from the main house and not my amp. |
If you use a mic with a directional pattern (like an SM-57), do not point it at the dust cap on the amp. Maybe try aiming it at a point halfway between the center and the edge of the speaker... and slightly angled away from the dust cap that's churning out all that brightness. This will mellow out the highs a bit in the house system. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 9:12 am
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| What Tucker said. Those JBL dust caps will rip your ears off for sure. JBL's are pretty bright anywhere on the cone but those dust caps..ouch! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 9:36 am
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| John De Maille wrote: |
| Yes, I hear the R sound in both, Buddy's and Hal's playing. |
| Savell wrote: |
| Thank you John for hearing it and confirming it is there. |
| Kevin Fix wrote: |
| I hear the R's plain as day now that you mention it. |
Ok - on the basis that I have not wandered into some weird twilight conspiracy zone, and having done time as an engineer, like Henry I didn't get the first post and I still don't. On the live videos I hear PA colouration. On the studio ones I just hear steel guitars.
What I think people may be hearing is intermodulation distortion, aggravated by circumstance. When we play more than one note, difference tones are created. Many of these are below our range of hearing but quite strong and the amp tries its best with them. We know the sound of distortion on a note we can hear, but now we have an amplifier producing audible distortion of an inaudible sound and it all gets mixed together. If the difference tones are in tune with the chord (which happens with naturally tuned triads) they reinforce it. If not, they produce a chain reaction of further difference tones and a hard time for the amp.
Now squeezing in and out of chords is part of the idiom, and there will be moments when the difference tones from a natural interval reinforce instead of fighting, and long periods when they don't. It's part of the sound of the instrument. The reason Ricky's offering is the cleanest (apart from him being a tremendous player) is that he plays a lot of single notes, and when he plays two notes together they form natural intervals. I have no idea how he tunes his guitar, but that's how he plays it because of his innate musicianship.
If this phenomenon exists at all, it's part of the instrument.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 9:49 am
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I guess I must not get what Savell means by "R's". To me the tones in the Buddy and Hal video and the David Hartley video, which Savell says both have the "R's", are very substantially different. The tones of both guitars in the first video have what I call the nasal upper midrange emphasis that is quite common in PSG tones. I could imagine calling that an "R" sound. But in the Hartley video the tone, to my ear, is clear and "bell-like", not nasal at all.
So it appears to me that perhaps the "R's" are not a question of EQ (whether from guitar, pickup, amp, environment, or recording technique) but of articulation.
Which is to say, more or less, that I agree with Ian's analysis. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 9:50 am
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If this phenomenon exists at all, it's part of the instrument.[/quote]
My thoughts exactly. That's the way pedal steel guitars sound at least the 300 different ones I have recorded within a 35 year span. If a steel guitar sounds like a vibraphone played with felt mallets better get Ricky to take a look at it. It might be a bit too mellow. |
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Ben Lawson
From:
Brooksville Florida
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 9:53 am
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Wow! "Very interesting", as Shultz would say. Ricky what you played and the manner in which you played it, was to me, the way a steel should sound.
Is Henson the guy you played with at the "Spoke" last July when we came to see you? |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 10:30 am
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| Savell wrote: |
| I want to see if you hear the Rs in this video right about 2:03 into it. |
Oh, you mean that Sneaky sound? Yeah, it's just a combination of things at the moment that I think turns out great.
I wouldn't worry with it. Your playing is beautiful. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 10:49 am
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I think I know what he is referring to about the R sound and made a short video demonstrating it. In the studio I call it Screechy. This video I just made is a combination of a concrete room both wall and floor, the harmonic overtones are amplified within the ambience of the room picked up by a 5 cent cellphone microphone plus that's just the way that pedal steels sounded in the 60's. If I had taken it direct you would have heard a much more "soothing sound".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud9pO4IwOuQ[url] |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 11:29 am
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Here is me again same guitar, same room but going direct via Countryman Hi to Lo transformer. Notice how it trimmed those peaky irritating highs out and I'm still playing on those high strings. I could have smoothed them out even more with a UREI 1176 limiter but not playing for a real record so it was pointless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir3Nz_AXMcA[url]
Last edited by David Mitchell on 4 Apr 2017 11:35 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Savell
From:
Lakeland FL
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 11:44 am
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David, you got it. Dripping "R"s. Absolutely.
I am not saying that it is bad or good so much as I am saying I would like to control it. Because too much of it during a single night's set gets irritating to me. Also that "R" sound is not what I want in every song I play. It's gotta be controled. I am almost convinced it is why some people does not want a PSG on certain recordings. It's kinda in the same boat with twang. We love twang for a while but not every song needs twang in it. (God help us, I probably ticked somebody off with that statement. Ha!)
For those that are having a hard time getting the original post, I was trying to make a point that it took me a long time to detect that thing which was bugging me. And now that I have identified it, I will re-ask my original inquiries in 2 direct questions.
1) Is it desirable?
2) Is it controllable?
David, your video and Ricky's video leads me to believe the answer to the 2nd question is "yes". I want to learn how to control it. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 12:00 pm
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| Yes it is controllable! You can avoid it all together by avoiding the small strings as much as possible but you can smooth all strings out a lot by reducing some of your mids and a tad of highs on your amp till it fits your ear. If you have a Fender amp with a high boost toggle switch and presence control just turn both of them off and it will de-emphasize those frequencies. Is it desirable? In a crowded honky tonk yes! That's what makes the rednecks throw their hat in the air and say He-L Yes! If you will be playing steel instrumentals on a recording a would choose a much less aggressive sound as explained above. |
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Savell
From:
Lakeland FL
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 12:09 pm
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| BTW, David you have some great videos. You play very well. Thanks for the feedback. Ricky is an awesome talent as well. He has always been a good forum friend for many years. Thanks, guys. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 12:26 pm
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Yes Ben that is Weldon Henson you saw/heard me with...and who I produce and play with.
David we are at the Broken Spoke every tuesday...come on with it..matter of fact here we are live...and I'm a ways away from the phone video...so not bragging on the steel playing; but bragging on my harmony singing..as you can hear it better than the steel...ha...
https://youtu.be/5Q98f9eEKq0
Thanks all ya'll for the kind words and there is so much great information here..just something to listen to and learn about....as the end result is what we want to hear is only going to happen if we know WHAT we want to hear...> that is my goal everytime I set up to play: Live;Studio; practicing..etc.
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 12:44 pm
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| Thank you Savell and thank you Ricky Davis! Glad I could be of some small help. Broken Spoke! I'll have to remember that in my travels. God Bless! |
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Bobby Burns
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 12:47 pm
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| That's some good stuff there Ricky. Reminds me of how much I miss Austin and the Broken Spoke! There's no place like that out here! |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 12:49 pm
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| Your band sounds awesome Ricky! You got the hit sound touch for pedal steel that very few have. I'll have to watch somemore of those videos. Thank you! |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 1:19 pm
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I've heard Buddy sound like that many times. Usually, playing an Emmons steel. Besides his technique, it probably has to do with his amp and effects settings. Also, the surroundings have something to do with it. There are quite a few factors involved. But, I believe that, it's the typical Buddy Emmons sound for an E9th neck. Whether you want to tonally sound like that or not is up to the individual. Howerever, I've never heard anyone completely sound like that consistently. Even I, can only get that sound on a rare occasion. Certainly not all the time. I think it's a dominant 5th string sound. Maybe with the 8+6 strings or 6+4 strings. The sliding of the bar, plus pedal action, volume pedal and pick attack, all being fed into an amp and effects are more than likely what you're hearing. If you examine that video, you'll hear, that, Hal doesn't have that sound consistently. It's there, but, not dominant, whereas, Buddy's is. And, yes, sound systems and their techs and recording engineers can make or break a steels sound, but, Buddy playing an Emmons usually will have that sound.
If you like or not, you'll have to tweak your amp and effects to gain it or lose it. I seriously doubt, that, you're getting it all the time. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 9:26 pm
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I can hear the 'sitar' effect in Savell's video (at 2:03).
Maybe there's a flat spot or groove where the string passes over the changer finger.
I did own one steel at one point where it would exhibit the 'whine' of the note as it decayed.
It seemed to be an inherent characteristic of the steel, so I cut my losses and sold it. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 10:14 pm
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Here ya go Savell. I went out of my way a few years ago to get that old honky tonk sound by playing an old steel and only using the E lower lever. The pedals on that steel were so stiff and the knee levers spread out so far most pickers couldn't even play it but I was determined to make at least one video with it since I bought it. This steel really spewed the R's out. This is just a tune I made up spontaneously as my wobbly rhythm track I made played along. I'm a bass player but not a drummer at all. I punched in a few spots so the video is out of sync with the audio in a few spots. This style is typical of early and mid sixties where they really got it honkin'. Lol!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDEd01mNQyI[url] |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 4 Apr 2017 11:43 pm
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Savell I just went and listened to your video after I went back and read where you guys were talking about it and I hear nothing wrong with your tone at all. It's a poor capture of the band in general but your tone fits the material and the band. I'm really confused now as to what you want out of a pedal steel. Maybe been listening to too many of those mushy, bassey instrumentals on the net. I thought that's what they suppose to sound like. Here is one last recording I will post and I probably won't be back on the Forum for another 6 months. This is a recording I made at home the way most pro records are made. I tried to play every instrument as smooth as I could like the old timers and I did play every stinkin' instrument, sang it, recorded it and mixed it myself. I do this occasionally for zero money between the money making sessions. If the steel still has R's I guess I'll never get them out of my sound either. This is the best I can do with the high strings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNd2qfqv4CA[url] |
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