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Topic: Pre Amp,,,, |
Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 7:29 am |
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| In my quest to "lighten the load",,,I'm starting to get a better understanding of amplification, I think? It looks to me like the pre amp is the heart and soul of the system. Does the power amp, the way it is configured, really make a big difference in the end sound,,,,or does the end result come strictly from the pre amp and the extent of controls on it. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 10:00 am
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Theoretically power amps don't color the tone.
In practice they don't color it much. Preamps are where all the knobs are.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Stephen Abruzzo
From:
Philly, PA
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 10:21 am
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With something like Jay Ganz' Straight Ahead Power Amp, that only has a Level knob, there is no coloring going on.
But, with some of the Bass Power Amps, like the Carvin BX series and even the GK amps, now you have a good amount of knobs/sliders that can affect your sound.
_________________
Four Pettingills and a Clinesmith Aluminum. Fender Blues Junior. Quilter Mini-101. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 11:23 am
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| Thanks for the input Stephen,,,so,,,I suppose the GK 200 head would have some sort of pre amp built in,,,is that correct? |
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Stephen Abruzzo
From:
Philly, PA
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 12:23 pm
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That would be my guess but I'd rather have one of our resident experts say so.
_________________
Four Pettingills and a Clinesmith Aluminum. Fender Blues Junior. Quilter Mini-101. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 12:49 pm
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| Stephen Abruzzo wrote: |
With something like Jay Ganz' Straight Ahead Power Amp, that only has a Level knob, there is no coloring going on.
But, with some of the Bass Power Amps, like the Carvin BX series and even the GK amps, now you have a good amount of knobs/sliders that can affect your sound. |
The BX, and probably the GK stuff, technically aren't "power amps". They are just regular amp heads like say, a Fender Showman head. A power amp doesn't have any pre-amp in it.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 31 Mar 2017 6:48 am
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For guitarists, the power amp section of a tube amp is critical to the sound and feel as guitarists like to push their amps to the power limits to get that power tube smoothing and compression.
BUT - for pedal steel players and bass players, we generally go for clean, uncolored, high-headroom power amplification and rely largely on the preamp for the EQ tone shaping, gain control, and mostly that's where we get the tone "quality", the sweetness and warmth. This is why we see a lot of pedal steel players using a hybrid setup with a tube preamp and some type of lightweight solid state power amp. It's true that not all power amps are equal, some sound nicer than others, but generally they're fairly similar in "tone".
So yes, the preamp is very much the tonal heart and soul of a pedal steel rig.
Brad |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 31 Mar 2017 7:10 am
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| I think a tube amp doesn't sound quite as sterile as a solid state amp, it has a little more richness. |
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Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 31 Mar 2017 8:13 am
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| Brad Sarno wrote: |
For guitarists, the power amp section of a tube amp is critical to the sound and feel as guitarists like to push their amps to the power limits to get that power tube smoothing and compression.
BUT - for pedal steel players and bass players, we generally go for clean, uncolored, high-headroom power amplification and rely largely on the preamp for the EQ tone shaping, gain control, and mostly that's where we get the tone "quality", the sweetness and warmth. This is why we see a lot of pedal steel players using a hybrid setup with a tube preamp and some type of lightweight solid state power amp. It's true that not all power amps are equal, some sound nicer than others, but generally they're fairly similar in "tone".
So yes, the preamp is very much the tonal heart and soul of a pedal steel rig.
Brad |
What is your ideal power amp and which one would you recommend in general? |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 31 Mar 2017 8:34 am
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| Mark Hershey wrote: |
[
What is your ideal power amp and which one would you recommend in general? |
That's a tough one. There are a lot of options. On a budget, the Crown XLS series is pretty nice, lightweight, class-D, after a couple hundred hours of break-in time, they really are quite nice.
BTW: class-D power amps are notoriously "dry" sounding when brand new and when cold. But after a good, long break-in period, many class-D amps smooth out and sound killer.
Jay Ganz miniature class-D amp is really sweet sounding, and I've played a few gigs with it recently and really like it.
If weight and money is not an issue, the Fryette 2/90/2 all-tube power amp is the rolls-royce of power amps for steel.
The Carvin TS100 is a nicely priced, all-tube power amp at about 100 watts, a bit louder than a Twin Reverb.
The older Stewart World power amps are still hanging in there for some people.
The Rocktron Velocity 300 has brought good reports.
The Telonics power amp is a real nice one.
The Peavey IPR2 2000 is nice. I think their IPR series is a merger of Peavey and Crest, a well regarded amplifier company.
People are having real good luck with the little Quilter power block amps.
A used Furlong SPLIT powered speaker cabinet is about as good as steel amplification gets. But they're hard to find. Like gold if you do find one.
And there's more out there. I'm sure people can chime in here.
Be sure to avoid the older Peavey DPC power amps. They were among the earliest available class-D designs long before the technology figured out how to sound good. They're ok for subwoofers, but quite unpleasant in the mids and treble where it matters the most. Peavey's newer offerings are lightyears ahead of that old tech.
Brad |
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Richard Tipple
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 31 Mar 2017 9:00 am
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Ive owned my TC Furlong Split Back for about 12 years now and I it sounds better now than 12 years ago.
TC introduced a real gem with this one 
_________________
steelguitarguy.com |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 31 Mar 2017 10:08 am
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Wow,,,amplification "101",,,great to have knowledgeable people like Brad chime in here,,,Thanks my friend!!!
There seems to be a following for the GK 200mb bass (power?) amp,,,,Brad didn't mention it??? |
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Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 31 Mar 2017 10:18 am
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| Thank you, Brad. Both of your responses were very informative. |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 31 Mar 2017 10:42 am
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I sold my McIntosh mc50 but it was pretty awesome for steel. They're a little weirdly shaped for gigging but if you're after the best sound they are worth looking into. The mc250, mc100, and mc2100 would all be great for steel.
Dan Lurie has three preamps in his line that are all awesome for steel. One that's like a twin reverb, an octal with full eq, and an octal reverb with single tone knob (i have one of these and use it for di recording). http://www.fydamps.com/photo3.html |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 31 Mar 2017 11:24 am
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ART2 with Line6 Pod XT. Nothing but vol control on amp.
Question for Brad Sarno...I've been told to run amp at max vol, and adjust vol @ preamp.Your thoughts...Thanks
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 31 Mar 2017 12:30 pm
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| I have been getting fantastic results with a Frenzel octal tube preamp into an LTD 400. Especially with non pedal D8 Gibson Consolette and Telecaster. Have to run them both at same time. Preamp lets me set vol level and some e.q. I also have a Session 400 for when I need to leave one amp at church and use other for bar gig or whatever. I love the tube harmonic feel and sound on front end and clean, just bit of breakup sound. PV steel amps give keep it clean and preamp give the magic. Also put Eminence Neo in both. Can actually move them without worry now. Had to be real careful with levels though. Too much and it distorts. Have pedal for that. Trick is to fill room with clean, beautiful but tough sounding steel guitar. liking this set up more and more. And only 2 tubes to replace. It is a great compromise. Some say there is magic with interplay of preamp and power amp tubes, but I am happy with hybrid setup. Just can't afford bit fancy amp so this is great for me. Session and LTD sound damn good even without tube pre. In fact most of the time at church pedal steel gig I don't bother to set it up. For rockabilly/country bar band I kinda need it though for D8 and tele. With EPS15 it is a huge sound. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 31 Mar 2017 12:34 pm
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| I have one of those 2/90/2 amps that Brad talked about but when I bought mine, the name of the company was VHT. Great amp! |
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Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 1 Apr 2017 12:16 pm
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Read up on a few of the power amps and I have to say that Jay Ganz one looks pretty cool and has given me a mild case of G.A.A.S (guitar amp acquiring syndrome).
Last edited by Mark Hershey on 1 Apr 2017 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 1 Apr 2017 12:32 pm
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| Sonny Jenkins wrote: |
Wow,,,amplification "101",,,great to have knowledgeable people like Brad chime in here,,,Thanks my friend!!!
There seems to be a following for the GK 200mb bass (power?) amp,,,,Brad didn't mention it??? |
Brad was mentioning POWER AMPS
A GK 200mb in NOT a POWER AMP. It is a self contained preamp and power amp. Just a regular old bass amp.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 1 Apr 2017 2:59 pm
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| Stephen Abruzzo wrote: |
With something like Jay Ganz' Straight Ahead Power Amp, that only has a Level knob, there is no coloring going on.
But, with some of the Bass Power Amps, like the Carvin BX series and even the GK amps, now you have a good amount of knobs/sliders that can affect your sound. |
As Brad pointed out below yours and above this, the lack of knobs doesn't mean there's no coloring.
Since not all power amps sound alike, they DO add their own color. Which is why I said "theoretically power amps don't color the sound."
Many don't try to color the sound, but they don't try hard enough NOT to.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 1 Apr 2017 7:53 pm
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Interesting.... I posed this same question to Gerry Walker (builder of the Stereo Steel amps) just a couple of weeks ago. Specifically, I asked if one of his pre-amps played through a power amp (like maybe a Quilter Block) would provide the same tone as his combo amp. His reply:
"I'd sell a preamp to a person with say, two PV N'ville amps and they'd run my pre into the PV poweramp inputs on the rear panel and the tone would be different than an SS so ... poweramps do influence tone. It really boils down to which poweramp suits one's ears and ... there lies that journey again. Along with the pocketbook!"
So, I think a slightly different take on how much power amps affect tone. I think Gerry would agree with Lane's comment that "Many don't try to color the sound, but they don't try hard enough NOT to."
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 2 Apr 2017 6:15 am
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Is there a power amp that is identical to the one in a Fender Twin?
Any DIY people make them? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 2 Apr 2017 10:43 am
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I'd ask Tim Marcus to make it. The Twin is what he built the steel amp around
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Don Mogle
From:
Round Rock, TX, USA
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Posted 2 Apr 2017 11:16 am Pre Amp
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Mike Hershey: I don't know for sure, but I have a Mesa Boogie 50/50 that puts it in the range of 100 watts together with both channels. It uses 6L6s like the Fender TR.
Regarding this post, I have been using a Walker Stereo Steel preamp with the Mesa Boogie 50/50 for home use. So I have combined the SS solid state preamp with a tube amp. It sounds great to me. I'd like to take in out and really push it to see how it performs in a live band situation.
Don |
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