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Topic: New member, first post: Marlen tech question |
Owen Grubbs
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2017 9:49 am |
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Greetings everyone. This is my first post to the forum.
I just inherited a steel guitar from my recently departed father. It is a Marlen, appears to be a model S-10W , built in 1977 I think, based on the
serial number (127791). Dad bought it new back in the day, and played it regularly down through the years, and got pretty good at it. He was strictly a country music man.
I enjoyed and appreciated what I call the old school country music Dad played around the house when I was growing up in the late 60s and early 70s (Hank, Willie, Buck Owens, Merle Haggard, Ray Price, etc.), but early on I gravitated to be more of a rock style player. I never payed much attention to Dad's steel sitting down in the basement, it seemed kind of strange to me.
Now that the Marlen is mine, I am interested in exploring the instrument more fully. I know enough music and chord theory to understand its E9 tuning.
Dad's tuning from 1 to 10 (high to low) is: F# - Eb - G# - E - B - G# - F# - E - D- B
My first task was to figure out how Dad had configured his pedals and levers. I have found that they are somewhat different from "standard," if there is such a thing.
Here was his setup:
His pedals went C-B-A from left to righ, instead of A-B-C from left to right, but I don't see that as being a big issue. Maybe that was a Marlen thing, I don't know.
His A pedal raised strings 5 and 10 from B to C#. I think that is standard.
His B pedal raised strings 3 and 6 from G# to A. I think that is standard as well.
But, his C pedal only raised one string, the 5th from B to C.
If I'm not mistaken, the standard C pedal should raise string 5 from B to C#, and also raise string 4 from E to F#.
His left knee lever lowered strings 4 and 8 from E to Eb.
His right knee lever lowered string 2 from Eb to D.
My next task was to get an introduction to the instrument. So I purchased The Pedal Steel Guitar book by Winnie Winston and began walking through some of the tab exercises. I soon realized that I should probably get Dad's pedal setup to match the book's standard setup, especially the C pedal.
As noted above, my C pedal raised the 5th string from B to C, instead of to C#. I was able to make the adjustment to get it to raise the note all the way to C#.
But, that left me with the problem of making the proper adjustment so that the C pedal also raises the 4th string from E to F#. (As noted above, Dad's C pedal didn't do anyhing with the 4th string.)
That last adjustment (adding the 4th string E to F# for pedal C) seems to be complicated because string 4 is also tied into the left knee lever (which lowers it from E to Eb currently). My googling has led me to believe that this adjustment is not for the faint of heart, could be a bear, and getting it wrong could screw things up quickly and royally. (I think the Marlen is constructed to use a pull-release mechanism, but I could be misinterpreting what I've read online about this.)
My question to you good folks, and thank you if you've read this far, is how I should proceed from here.
Should I attempt to make the final C pedal for the 4th string adjustment myself? If so, could someone give me some pointers in doing so?
Or, should I seek out an expert for this type of adjustment? This is what I'd prefer to do, especially if I could find someone within driving distance of central Virginia.
Thanks for reading. |
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Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2017 10:45 am
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Hi Owen. Welcome to the madness. It's a "nice little hobby."
You'll find input here from others familiar with Marlen guitars. Would help to know if your steel has a pull-release or all-pull changer. Both were made. Someone might know from the SN or mfg. date.
Can you post pictures of the undercarriage and the end-plate at the right (changer) side?
C-B-A pedals configuration is not unusual.
DAY (CBA) setup (made popular by Jimmy Day)
vs. EMMONS (ABC).
A search here for "copedent" should return lots of info on various ways to configure pedals and knees. You're likely to want a couple more knee levers. But don't left that stop you from playing your steel.
Dan |
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Buck Rodgers
From:
Virginia (Yorktown)
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Posted 15 Mar 2017 10:52 am
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Owen; I'm a rookie myself, so can't be much help in the technical department. Depending on your definition of "central Virginia", you probably aren't very far from Billy Cooper's Steel Guitar Store in Orange, VA. From my few brief discussions w/ Billy, I get the feeling he knows everything there is to know about Pedal Steel Guitars.
> > http://www.billycooperssteelguitar.com/ < < Good Luck.
Buck Rodgers,
Yorktown, VA |
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Owen Grubbs
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2017 2:38 pm Photo 1
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Photo of the Marlen undercarriage.
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Owen Grubbs
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2017 2:39 pm Photo 2
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Photo of the end plate.
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Owen Grubbs
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2017 2:41 pm Photo 3
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Close up of undercarriage.
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Edward Rhea
From:
Medford Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2017 5:20 pm
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Great guitar! Looks like Day pedal setup...don't feel compelled to switch anything around just yet...these pull/release guitars can be a bugger to adjust for a new to steel player. The good news is once it's set up properly, they're amongst the most stable and seldom require anything more than a touch up, on the tuning.
May we see some topside/front pics too? I LOVE the Marlen guitars! They often had some of the finest looking cabinets and usually play and sound incredible!
I truly admire the fact that it was your dad's guitar, and that your interested in playing it...you'll keep his memory alive everytime you discover those licks and sounds, that he imbedded in that instrument!
_________________
“TONESNOB†|
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Mitch Ellis
From:
Collins, Mississippi USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2017 5:42 pm
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| Edward Rhea wrote: |
I truly admire the fact that it was your dad's guitar, and that your interested in playing it...you'll keep his memory alive everytime you discover those licks and sounds, that he imbedded in that instrument! |
Same here, and welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to hear about your Dads passing. About the Marlin, I once worked on one for a man, and it was aggravating to work on, but once I got it in playing condition and test drove it, it sounded REALLY good. Good luck with yours and don't ever sell it.
Mitch |
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Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2017 8:48 pm
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Owen, it seems that you've got a nice guitar. Changing and adding stuff is do-able, but there's nothing wrong with playing what you've got until you get a feel for what you need.
Here is a picture of James Morehead (RIP) with his Marlen. James was a man who knew about "tone to the bone."
Eddie Rhea will probably know if this was a pull release steel.
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Daniel McKee
From:
Corinth Mississippi
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Posted 15 Mar 2017 9:41 pm
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| You have a great guitar to start out on. As many have said that seems to be Day setup which Is one of the two most commonly seen configurations. I would try to play it like that rather than change stuff around. The pull release is a great mechanism but it could get complicated if you start changing stuff around. |
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Scott Duckworth
From:
Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies
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Posted 16 Mar 2017 3:36 am
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Owen, first of all, congrats on inheriting a great guitar! Marlen pull-release guitars are one of the most stable there is as far as staying in tune, and enjoyment in playing. And, the one you have is a beauty!
Now, my opinion as to what to do, with reasoning.
It's evident you have a Day setup. The big difference is Day is CBA (left to right) where Emmons is ABC.
Here's what I would do... sit at the guitar. One of the things you have to do in playing is hold A pedal down, and rock on and off the B pedal. See if you can do that. Then, using the C & B pedals, treat C pedal as the Emmons A pedal, and try rocking on and off the B pedal.
Which feels or works the best? Then that is the setup I would go with. I have arthritis in my ankles, and I can't do a rocking motion to the right (rotate ankle inward) so I would have to play and ABC setup.
As for changing it, if it needs it, I would seek out an experienced guitar tech, and ask if you can be present to watch the procedure done. Pull - release isn't that hard.
I bought a Marlen D-10 and was able to refurb it, including putting in a full Emmons setup with 3 floors and 4 knees. I'm mechanically inclined, and after a few minutes studying the guitar was able to do it. I also re-rodded most of the C6 neck back to standard.
I would like to see you consider adding two knees to it, to accomplish all the E9 changes available (3 pedals, 4 knees). But as long as you have the Es lowering on one knee, and raising on the other, that's the basics that are needed, along with the 3 floor pedals. A lot of music can be had with a 3 & 2 setup.
Enjoy that instrument, and think of your dad often. Tale good care of it, and it will last you a lifetime. My mother "gave" me her music, and even though we played different instruments, I think of her and her playing often.
_________________
Amateur Radio Operator NA4IT (Extra)
http://www.qsl.net/na4it
I may, in fact, be nuts. However, I am screwed onto the right bolt... Jesus! |
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Owen Grubbs
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2017 4:14 am
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Here is a view of the guitar from the top.
I'd really like to get the C pedal to pull the 4th string E up to F#, which seems to be pretty standard. I'll probably be giving the Billy Cooper shop a call in the near future, as they are only a couple hours away from where I live.
As far as learning and playing it goes, I've spent a few hours here and there with it since I got it set up at my place, mainly just documenting and familiarizing myself with its setup and tuning. The hardest part so far has been getting comfortable with the thumb and finger picks, but that's coming along.
Like I said in my initial post, I like the old style country music my Dad played, but I'm more of a rock musician, so after learning and getting comfortable with the basics of the steel, I'd like to explore more of a rock sound with it. I love the work Skunk Baxter did early on with Steely Dan.
Picture file
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Owen Grubbs
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2017 4:17 am
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| And also, thanks for the warm welcome and good advice, guys! |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2017 4:39 am
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[quote="Scott Duckworth"]
It's evident you have a Day setup.
If Owens "A" pedal raises 5 and 10 it would be an Emmons set-up.
Owen to get your fourth string to raise to F# you need to get it first before you adjust for your fifth string raise on that pedal. Always adjust the thinnest string on the change first because they have the longest travel. It looks from the pictures that everything is there to make the change. |
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Bruce Derr
From:
Lee, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2017 6:21 am
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Owen is referring to the pedal's function, not its position.
| Owen Grubbs wrote: |
| His pedals went C-B-A from left to right, instead of A-B-C from left to right... |
Owen, welcome to the Forum family. I'm sorry to hear that you lost your father. That's a beautiful steel and I imagine he'd be happy that you're taking an interest in it.
It looks like there's a third knee lever, the RKL (right knee left). Is it tied up in the folded position? Looks like a twist-wire holding it there.
| Owen Grubbs wrote: |
| His right knee lever lowered string 2 from Eb to D. |
It looks like there's a puller on that knee for the 7th string as well, but no rod.
| Owen Grubbs wrote: |
| As noted above, my C pedal raised the 5th string from B to C, instead of to C#. I was able to make the adjustment to get it to raise the note all the way to C#. |
He may have been doing this to get an A minor chord with B and C pedals down. You made the right choice to restore the C pedal's normal function. There are plenty of ways to get minor chords with the standard setup.
| Owen Grubbs wrote: |
| That last adjustment (adding the 4th string E to F# for pedal C) seems to be complicated because string 4 is also tied into the left knee lever (which lowers it from E to Eb currently). |
When you lower and raise the same string on a pull-release guitar, you have to leave a gap in the raise pull to allow room for the lower, and you need a way to tune the "center" note (the open E in your case), which is sometimes accomplished by an adjustment under the guitar. There are some pull-release experts here that may chime in, and plenty of past threads, some with diagrams. But you have a great option in Billy Cooper. He'll get it all sorted. He might be able to add a 4th knee lever as well, which would complete what most players would consider "standard E9" these days. |
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Owen Grubbs
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2017 8:16 am
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| Bruce, thanks for the info and feedback. Yes, there is another right knee lever that is tied with a twisty to keep it up and out of the way. Not sure why Dad did not have that one configured. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 16 Mar 2017 8:29 am
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We "Day" players do refer to pedal 3 as the "A" pedal.
You don't need to match your tuning to the book. Just remember where your matching pedals are. It's really not a problem, and it shouldn't be. The only issues I ever had was with material that used the 1,2,3 pedal designations. I just took a pencil and changed the 1 to a 3, and 3 to a 1. Problem solved.
The suggestion of trying the current Day setup, and then trying pedals B & C to try the Emmons setup. Great suggestion. But, I wouldn't rush to change the pedals around. Make that decision after your ankle gets in shape. Then you will be able to make an informed decision. I often back the tuning nut on string 4 (E to F#) off and practice playing the Emmons setup. I sometimes sit in on Emmons set up guitars. I'm almost at home with both tunings.
Sure wish I also had a Marlen.
Welcome to the forum.
[/quote]
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Edward Rhea
From:
Medford Oklahoma, USA
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Mar 2017 9:42 pm
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It looks like you have the rods set up for a proper C pedal, I think I see the rods and bellcranks.
With the guitar assembled but upside down, work the A pedal, then the C pedal. You should see that something on the C pedal isn't working right.
Remember that the pull-release tunes odd:
If a string raises, you tune the highest note at the keyhead with the change activated, and the lowest note with the hex bolts. If a string both raises and lowers, the middle note (on your guitar, that's the 4th string E) tunes in the window.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Mar 2017 9:49 pm
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You might be missing some collars and tuning nuts, and/or have gotten things out of adjustment by not knowing the mechanism. You have three knees: E raises, E lowers, and the 2nd string drop (I'd recommend adding a half-stop so you have D#, D and C#). You have the cross-shaft for a currently unused LKR).
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ned McIntosh
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 23 Mar 2017 6:15 pm
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Nice steel, a late model pull-release with double-sided bellcranks, chassis-rails both sides and nice, straight pull-rods. That's likely to be a tone-monster!
For my E to F# on Pedal C I used a second pull-rod as I wasn't able to use the same pull-rod the E-F knee-lever used. (You can just see it locked into the pedal 3 4th string bellcrank with a brass-collar in the middle of the photo, and it's in the hole furthest away from the cross-rod which gives the greatest movement. The E-F knee-lever pull-rod runs immediately under it and uses the same hole on its own bellcrank, which is sitting just behind the spring, and the 8th string E-F raise bellcrank is also clearly visible on the knee-lever cross-shaft.)
The multiple holes on the changer-finger allowed a second raise to be added to the 4th string quite easily. All I had to do was make sure the pedal depressed far enough to fully activate the bellcrank to achieve the necessary raise on string 4. It tunes at the keyhead in the usual pull-release manner.
The other pull on Pedal C (B to C#) may be already rigged and working well on your steel, but for information, here's how I rigged my pedal C on the D10 I re-worked a number of years ago.(I play Emmons, but this works for Day as well.)
A single pull-rod operates on both pedal A and Pedal C (the B to C# change on both pedals).
The bellcrank for pedal C (middle of picture) doesn't secure the pull-rod, which slides through a white Delrin bush in the bellcrank and is activated by a stop-collar on the rod with a spring to cushion the pull and add "feel".
Likewise, the bellcrank on Pedal A (to the right) doesn't lock the pull-rod either but also has a Delrin bush - the rod has to be free to slide through both bushes so each pedal and bellcrank can operate independently of the other. (Technically it's a form of OR gate, in which either one or the other pull works. Note that both working simultaneously is also possible but not usually encountered in playing pedal-steel guitar.)
All you need then is a second stop-collar and feel-spring at the pedal A bellcrank to make Pedal A also operate the B to C# change.
To tune this arrangement, first activate the Pedal C change and tune at the keyhead.
Keeping pedal C pressed, then fully depress Pedal A and adjust the stop-collar at the Pedal A bellcrank until it also "bottoms out". Pedal A doesn't tune at the keyhead at all, it tunes by adjusting the position of the stop-collar on the pull-rod. Now both pedals are now tuned and will operate independently.
Pull-release is a deceptively simple mechanism but it requires a very careful set-up, balancing string-tension against spring-tension. The straightest possible pull-rods, and no unwanted friction, are essential for reliable playing.
Once set up, these steels have the almost legendary tuning stability of a well-set up Emmons Push-Pull - provided you stick to exactly the same string-gauges! Your steel has all the necessary attributes needed to be a very fine and playable instrument.
_________________
The steel guitar is a hard mistress. She will obsess you, bemuse and bewitch you. She will dash your hopes on what seems to be whim, only to tease you into renewing the relationship once more so she can do it to you all over again...and yet, if you somehow manage to touch her in that certain magic way, she will yield up a sound which has so much soul, raw emotion and heartfelt depth to it that she will pierce you to the very core of your being. |
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Tony Leary
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 24 Mar 2017 3:22 am Marlen setup
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| Good luck on your journey Owen. Hope you can find someone nearby to help with your setup. There is lots of great info all ready here in this thread and a treasure chest on the forum. Ned has nailed the procedure , if you want to take it on yourself. Personnelly I would play with your dads setup , for awhile . Get to know your Steel with other musos in a band environment . Do some more homework , maybe get some lessons to get some confidence . Take it slow to start with , speed will come with dedicated practice. Melbay has a great catlog including DeWitt Scott and Jay Leach . Also Hal Leonard , Pedal Songbook by Johnie Helms has lots of standards tabbed out. Tab out your own songs you enjoy to play with recordings. Good luck ....you have a great guitar. |
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