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Author Topic:  Struggling with effects
Loren Depping


From:
Salem, Oregon, USA
Post Posted 18 Mar 2017 1:15 pm     Reply with quote

I've been playing pedal steel for a few years, but I've never really had much success getting "the sound" of steel right. My right hand technique probably contributes to this, but I suspect that my lack of knowledge about using effects, well, "effectively" also plays a part. I'm playing a LeGrande all-pull through a 112 with a Boss VF-1 attached (thank you, Larry Behm, for connecting me with ALL of these!). The 112 has a Black Widow in it and the Fox mod (again, thanks to Larry). I've been subbing the VF-1 in and out with a Boss RV-3 stomp box in its place, playing with settings, but I'm not getting the sound of steel that I hear coming from even intermediate players. Like I said, part of that is "operator malfunction," so my question is: does anyone out there have a recommendation for settings I should try for either the effects or the amp to get the best tone possible PRIOR to the all-important variable of my right hand? Am I using the wrong effects? If not, how should I be setting them (or the EQ on the 112)? Thanks for sharing your wisdom, all.
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Steve Spitz


From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
Post Posted 18 Mar 2017 6:08 pm     Reply with quote

Loren,
Can you describe what it is about your sound you feel is lacking ?

You could do a search on the RV3 settings in Electronics and get something really nice, just as a starting point. Its been discussed here.

I recall Peavey showed a recommended EQ setting in the owners manual,for the E9 and C6 settings. Im guessing the manual is available online , or maybe one of the more tech savvy members will post a link.

If all youre after is the settings for the amp and RV3, that should be easy. You might also confirm the pickups are the proper distance from the strings.

Can you get with another steeler , one who you think has the sound your after, and have him play your rig, and you try his ?

Let us know how you fare, lots of help on this forum.You should be able to get a decent sound just with the Emmons and the 112. The RV3 should just sweeten the package. I had good luck running mine through the effects loop.

Best of luck, enjoy the journey.
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Bob Lawrence


From:
Beaver Bank, Nova Scotia, Canada
Post Posted 18 Mar 2017 7:14 pm     Reply with quote

For your RV3 settings you can use Lloyd Green's settings as a reference to start with.

Info From here:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/001760.html

Mike has it folks. I also talked to Lloyd last weekend at the show and he literally showed me exactly how his Boss RV-3 was set:
Setting #7 which is plate 'verb + delay
Mix was pretty low like 7:30/8:00
Feedback was set at 11:00
Delay Time was set at 1:00
The mix knob is the key so the repeats aren't too obvious. He also set the Peavey Nashville 1000's on stage at:
Bass +6
Midrange frequency around 800Hz
Midrange cut about -6/-8dB
Treble flat
Presence flat
Pickup Bill Lawrence 710

What a tone!!!
==========================


Just don't expect to sound like LLoyd. Laughing

Also , ensure you have good low capacitance cables. What kind of volume pedal do use?
_________________
Franklin D10, Telonics (E9)True Tone(C6) pickups, Fender Steel King , Evans (FET 500LV), Nashville 400, amp's, Telonics FP100 volume pedal, PodXT(effects only), Boss RV3(delay & reverb),Steel Guitar Black Box,Bill Lawrence cables, Walker Seat,Peterson Flip Tuner, IVL Steel Rider, IK Multimedia IRig Pro DUO for recording.
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GaryL


From:
Medina, OH USA
Post Posted 18 Mar 2017 8:52 pm     Reply with quote

I noticed a big difference in sound going through an active volume pedal rather than a passive (pot) pedal. There's a lot of variables to desirable tone.
_________________
Emmons LeGrande D-10
GFI Ultra D-10 keyless
Quilter SteelAire
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Brad Sarno


From:
St. Louis, MO USA
Post Posted 18 Mar 2017 10:19 pm     Reply with quote

Where is your volume pedal placed in this signal path?

What volume pedal?

Brad
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David Nugent


From:
Gum Spring, Va.
Post Posted 19 Mar 2017 4:10 am     Reply with quote

As in troubleshooting most problems, you might try isolating the elements in your chain one at a time. After setting your '112' to the recommended settings, try plugging directly into the amp and listen closely to determine if the tone is closer to what you are seeking, (some minor adjustments may be in order). Next add your volume pedal into the mix and listen for any noticeable differences..Note; pot pedals tend to gain treble response as they are depressed so changes in tone will be detected depending on where you normally position it while playing.. Once all other aspects are satisfactory, add your RV3.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post Posted 19 Mar 2017 10:22 am     Reply with quote

Tone is one of the last tumblers to drop in the lock.
I'd ditch the outboard effects, just use a little bit of the amp reverb, get Larry's settings for the amp, then try to ignore the fact that your tone ain't like Larry's yet. Learn to play the guitar, and keep getting better.

Most newbies get poor tone by picking tentatively, as if they're afraid of bad notes. Pick assertively, as if you're daring it to sound bad. Spend some time practicing without an amp, picking hard enough to hear it
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
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Loren Depping


From:
Salem, Oregon, USA
Post Posted 19 Mar 2017 10:30 am     Chain Reply with quote

I'm using a Hilton low-profile pedal. My chain is: steel to tuner (it's a Boss TU-3...I'm not super excited about it, but I haven't been able to purchase a strobe tuner yet). The tuner then goes to either the VF-1 or the RV-3, then out to the Hilton pedal, then to the 112. Have I got my chain messed up?

Great questions, everyone. I was pretty sure you guys would be the best sources of information. I do appreciate it!
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Ken Fox


From:
Nashville, GA USA
Post Posted 19 Mar 2017 10:44 am     Reply with quote

My volume pedal is and always will be the first thing in my chain.
_________________
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http://foxvintageamps.com/
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Ken Pippus


From:
Lake Oswego, OR
Post Posted 19 Mar 2017 11:01 am     Reply with quote

Larry moved closer to you. Go see him and see what he says. Though the options above are all worth considering.
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Steve Spitz


From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
Post Posted 19 Mar 2017 11:27 am     Reply with quote

I would:

1. Take the tuner out of the chain. Even if it claims true bypass, I wouldnt want that to be first thing my signal sees.

2. Go straight from the guitar, to the volume pedal,(like Ken states ) ,and from the pedal , straight to the amp.

3. Run any effects through the loop, send and return.

Let us know if that helps. Good Luck!
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Loren Depping


From:
Salem, Oregon, USA
Post Posted 19 Mar 2017 12:06 pm     Reply with quote

Ken, Steve and Ken: thanks, this is helpful...and something I haven't tried. I don't know why I thought the tuner had to be first in my chain. So, if my chain is guitar to pedal to amp, with effects sent and returned, I'm curious: where does my tuner come in?

And yes, Ken, thanks. I am long overdue to go see Larry--I at least owe him lunch!
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post Posted 19 Mar 2017 12:42 pm     Reply with quote

The tuner doesn't go in the chain.
Unplug the chain - plug in the tuner - tune it - unplug the tuner - plug in the chain - play it.
My personal philosophy is opposed to the strobe tuners: don't tell your tuner that (for instance) a 17 cents flat C# should show 0, but learn that the C# is supposed to be 17 cents flat. Your TU-3 is perfectly capable of that
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
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Loren Depping


From:
Salem, Oregon, USA
Post Posted 19 Mar 2017 4:12 pm     Reply with quote

Thanks, Lane. That's a good point. It's an experience thing, and that's the kind of "master class" information I appreciate receiving. You don't know what you don't know until you realize you didn't know it.
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Steve Spitz


From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
Post Posted 19 Mar 2017 4:38 pm     Reply with quote

+ 1 for what Lane said. Keep the tuner out of the chain.

Hope that helps.
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David Nugent


From:
Gum Spring, Va.
Post Posted 19 Mar 2017 5:39 pm     Reply with quote

If you prefer to have your tuner on and handy at all times while playing, you might try contacting Keith Hilton, he may be able to convert the second output on your VP to a designated tuner out (signal will power tuner even when volume pedal is completely off).
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post Posted 19 Mar 2017 7:42 pm     Reply with quote

DON'T DO THAT. It leads to bad habits.
Bob Hoffnar's ear training discs can help develop your ear.
Also, if you have a sweetened programmed tuner, every note not E is off.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
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Larry Behm


From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
Post Posted 20 Mar 2017 7:25 am     Reply with quote

Mr D you need to call me, soon. Lane you are 100% correct, playing with authority can make a big difference.
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback PP, Telonics 409 pickups, Hilton volume pedal, BJS, Walker SS, Boss VF-1, Boss Ge-7 for Dobro effect, Seymour Duncan Twin Tube, Zoom MS50G.

See Facebook for "Painless Steel Productions": instructional videos
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 20 Mar 2017 8:08 am     Reply with quote

Lane Gray wrote:
I'd ditch the outboard effects, just use a little bit of the amp reverb... Learn to play the guitar, and keep getting better. Pick assertively, as if you're daring it to sound bad. Spend some time practicing without an amp, picking hard enough to hear it

When I started I used just a little amp reverb, because I mostly practise on headphones and totally dry it felt like the guitar was wedged in my skull. (Also, reverb helps your intonation, because each note is played against the remains of the last and you can hear the pitch relationship, if only subconsciously.)

When it comes to performing, the digital box offers what the tank reverb can't, which is delay. It can be used as an audible effect, but it can also be used more subtly as pre-delay to create a more realistic room. (In a real space there is a delay of several milliseconds between the direct sound reaching the listener and the first reflection.)

The volume pedal is part of the instrument and is always first in the chain.
_________________
No-name 60s D10 8x5, homebuilt Uni 12 7x5, Hilton pedal, pair of Fender 112s
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Brad Sarno


From:
St. Louis, MO USA
Post Posted 20 Mar 2017 8:16 am     Reply with quote

And absolutely place the reverb AFTER the volume pedal, never before.

Brad
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 20 Mar 2017 9:48 am     Reply with quote

Ian Rae wrote:
The volume pedal is part of the instrument and is always first in the chain.

That is absolutely what I meant.
_________________
No-name 60s D10 8x5, homebuilt Uni 12 7x5, Hilton pedal, pair of Fender 112s
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David Nugent


From:
Gum Spring, Va.
Post Posted 21 Mar 2017 2:05 pm     Reply with quote

So, according to Lane, all who tune using the Peterson presets are out of tune (except for the two 'E's. of course)? The factory programmed offsets for the OE9 setting on the StroboPlus follow the tuning chart that Jeff Newman comprised years ago very closely and he always sounded in tune to me!..Also, did not intend to suggest that you stare at the tuner while playing, simply to alleviate the necessity of plugging and unplugging cables, (beside which, try using your "ear" in a noisy club or while the drummer is warming up!)
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post Posted 21 Mar 2017 3:45 pm     Reply with quote

No. That's not what I said. If you're using the Newman numbers, your C#s are 17 cents flat of ET, regardless of whether you're pointing your needle a certain deflection to the left or programmed your tuner to tell you that -17 is in tune.
I just hold the firm opinion that it's better to understand that -17 is in tune and that way, you're understanding what's going on.

And I do know some players use their tuners to check intonation. I'm not sure that's a wise idea, but it happens.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 21 Mar 2017 11:04 pm     Reply with quote

If a person needs a visual reference to tell them what their ears cannot, I'm not sure they should be anywhere near a musical instrument.
_________________
No-name 60s D10 8x5, homebuilt Uni 12 7x5, Hilton pedal, pair of Fender 112s
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Loren Depping


From:
Salem, Oregon, USA
Post Posted 22 Mar 2017 6:47 am     Larry Behm Reply with quote

Once again, I say thanks to all who added their experience and thoughts about this topic. It has helped me a great deal in a short time. As mentioned above, though, I want to take a moment and send a special consideration of thanks to Larry Behm. Larry has been THE reason I've progressed as much as I have in the time I've been playing. Larry, I'm really grateful to you for your generosity of all the knowledge you've accumulated and your willingness to spend time in sharing it. And for your friendship. It means a lot. The Forum is a great place. Much obliged, everyone.
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