Moving Es to the left...

Dave Meis · From: Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA

I learned to play with the Es on the right. I'm looking for info from folks who played that way, then moved to having them on the left. I'm wondering if anyone found advantages to having them on the left that 'out weighed' the 're-learning' process. Smile

I like having them on the right because the Es are 'all or nothing', and fishing around for a feel stop on the 2nd lower or 1st raise on the volume pedal side seems like it would be more difficult, and the Es, being my most used levers, are most often used with the pedals of ALL combinations. Just asking for opinions from people who have done both. Thanks!

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Dave, only drawback I can think of is that they may interfere with your volume pedal since they are the most used levers. I'd rather have them on left knee only for that reason. My right knee lever doesn't bother the volume pedal or the half stop on second string but they aren't used near as much. I used to have the E lowers on my RKL but decided later to put them both on same knee. Never had the raise on my right knee.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Dave, what you say implies that you are going to move them both - while you're at, consider separating them.

You might be heartened to learn that both my right knee levers have feel stops and it's no problem as the side-to-side "fishing" doesn't interfere with the front-to-back pedal motion.
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Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Whatever works! Rolling Eyes

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

while there is nothing "wrong" with having the E's on the right knee or even separated, right and left. There are no hard and fast rules. There is no right or wrong. It's preference.

The thing about it is ergonomics, maybe not for everyone but for many. This is probably why it has become a manufacturers standard.

For an Emmons setup, you are using your left leg already for Peds A,B and C. Placing your E's on the left is an ergonomic move to use either the E Raise lever or the E lower lever with your peds. No extra energy required, not two legs, not two knees, no V-Pedal involved. less energy exerted.

Regarding fishing for the 2nd string half stop, I would say go "DEEP" water fishing and resolve it, you are missing premium phrasing without both the 2nd string 1/2 and whole tone drops. yes many Steels have a very soft feel for the half stop but it can be improved on any steel. Plus the 9 Lower is natural on that RKR as well.
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Dave Meis · From: Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA

Thanks for the responses.. keep 'em coming. Another consideration is: I lower my 6th a whole step with my vertical, and that works well with the E lower.. so I guess I would be considering splitting the Es at that juncture, leaving the lower on the right. Having them split almost makes more sense anyway..
Henry: I've gotten used to having them on the volume pedal side, and you're right.. it took some effort at first to not 'stomp' the pedal sometimes! Smile

Ian: Having them split may make the most sense, even if only for those 'once in a Blue Moon' 3 consecutive notes on the E string. Smile

Erv: Obviously, I agree. I've changed every guitar I've had to Es on the right because that's the way I learned it.. but I'm wondering if there's advantages to re-learning it. Smile

Tony: thanks! I'm not about right or wrong..I've been doing it like this for 20 years..I was just looking for opinions from people that had done both. I use ALL the levers, and I'm 'used' to them where they are, but was curious if there was a compelling reason for moving them and relearning them. Thanks again!
Thanks again, and keep 'em coming!

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

As noted its "6 of one and half a dozen of the other".

I have the full Emmons setup with the pedals and the E raise (LKL) and lowers (LKR) on the left. When I got my new Emmons PP in 1971 that was the way it was setup. My Franklin is the same way and my wife's GFI Expo is the same way (stock GFI factory setup) I've played other steels with the E lower on the right ("Sho Bud setup") and had no problem with that. But then I used to sit in on a friends steel with the Day setup and it only took one song to get up to speed with that.

If I remember correctly, Paul Franklin has the E lowers on the RKL and the E raises on the LKL.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Having the F lever on LKL (with Emmons pedals) makes the transition for A+B to A+F feel very natural. There's an advantage to the left knee.

If you're a D-10 player, having the E lowers on the same lever that lowers C to B on the back neck (RKL or RKR) makes sense, as they are both lowering the root tone of the tuning. The same could be said of the back neck C# lever and the E9th F lever. So there's an advantage to the right knee.

The longer you play one configuration, the harder it is to change. I moved my E lever from LKR to RKL. Five years later I was still making very loud, confident mistakes in songs that I had memorized before the change. Embarassed

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Dave Meis · From: Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA

Thanks guys! Every time I get a 'new' guitar, I find myself tossed on the horns of this dilemma. I've never found a guitar for sale that has the Es on the right, but that's what I know, and I'm thinking that's what I'll stay with. Most of my guitars are 'all pull', so changing them is easy. When I bought my Emmons, Craig Holden set it up 'my way', and now I'm looking at another Emmons that would need to be set up (I'm not sure I'm ready to tackle that!). He's offering to do it, so I'm doing 'this' one more time! Smile

Like Jack said.. '6 of one..' and like bOb said, 'the longer you do it..' What you say about the F on the left and Eb on the right makes sense!!
Thanks to all for letting me cogitate, and I appreciate everyone taking their time and sharing their thoughts! This is a GREAT forum! Thanks bOb! Smile

Edward Rhea · From: Medford Oklahoma, USA

FWIW, I recently changed a copedent for a friend who plays with his E's on the right leg. While fine tuning and testing, I personally didn't find it to be a big deal adjusting to it? I still played equally crappy! The guitar sounded great with him playing it though...of course, he's been playing that setup since the '70's, and felt completely awkward while playing on my guitar, E's on the left, but still blew me away! I wouldn't have ever guessed he struggled, if not telling me so?
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Dave Meis · From: Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA

I think if I decided I was just going to play one guitar, I'd seriously think about switching just so I could play someone else's guitar! I suffer the 'old dog, new tricks' thing, I guess. Smile

God knows it's hard enough! I've started out with it everytime I've gotten a different guitar, saying 'this time!' and could learn it, but within an hour, it's upside down on the kitchen table. Like I said, I was looking for a definitive reason for doing it, but there doesn't appear to be one..it seems to come down to what people are used to. Kinda like Daylight Savings Time.. what you gain on one end, you lose on the other!

Kevin Fix · From: Michigan, USA

I played Sho Buds for over 30 years with the "E" lower on my RKL. I bought a new Mullen last year and the "E" lower is on my LKR now. Took a little while to get used to it. I like it there. "E" raise LKL and "E" lower LKR.

Dan Robinson · From: Colorado, USA

Hi Dave,

I bought my first pedal steel in 1973. It had just two knee levers, E's on the right. E-lower/RKL E-raise/RKR. I played that thing until just a few months ago.

Less than a year ago I got a 4x5 SD10 Carter, E-raise/LKL and E-lower/RKR. I decided to play it like it was, before tinkering with it.

The pleasant surprise was how easily I got used to the new setup. If I had any difficulty it was with the narrow pedals, compared to the large "waffle" pedals on my old ShoBud.

Learning the new knee setup was easy enough that I'm thinking about moving my E-lower from RKR to RKL. It doesn't scare me anymore.

I don't consider myself a gifted player. Maybe I'm just lucky. I just think has become a lot more dogmatic than it deserves.

Thinking of changing your setp? Try it... you always have a right to change your mind.

Dave Meis · From: Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA

Thanks Dan.. would you say there's an advantage? I'm pretty sure I could do it, I was just wondering if there's a compelling reason. I have enough guitars that I could set one up and see if it was 'better' for me, and that's probably the way I should go! Having the 6th string lower that works well with the Eb lower might make it better to have the Eb on the right, as trying to use a left knee in conjunction with the left vertical may prove problematic Smile

Craig A Davidson · From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA

I have had them both ways. I just moved the ones on my D-10 Williams, and my RP Mullen to LKR. The new S-10 Williams I just bought is set up that way. Also I double on guitar and it seems that the left knees are closer to the apron. Makes it easier.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

For over 15 years I played, Day set up, Lower E"s on LKL, And Raise E's on LKR. It was great a real handy set up. Rock Left foot left on B pedal and roll left knee left, A 7th Chord. Roll foot Right on A pedal and roll knee right. Slide bar 3 frets, Say 3rd fret G to 6th fret and engage A Pedal and raise E's another G chord.
Then Dec, 2016 I put my S10 under the bed and set up my new to me S12 Universal. I set it up Jeff Newman Universal Stayed with Day System C,B,A pedals and moved Lower E's (D Knee Lever) to RKR. Raise E's (F Knee Lever), Now its roll Left Foot Left, RKR Lever for 7th chord. And Left Foot right and RKL for the Chord slide up 3 frets. I need my LKR open for the B6 pedals. I Was 72 when I made the change. About 3 days with a lot of practice I got it in my Nero Memory and since it came natural.
Good Luck and Happy Steelin whatever your choice.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

years back Buddy commented on this, splitting the E's. I wish I could have saved it somewhere. I believe this was at St Louis up in the bar area.

here is what he basically said with regard to splitting the E's when he was asked...

It's wasting a spot for a lever, wasting a knee. We would never engage both E's at the same time so put them on ONE leg . Use the OTHER knee for another alternative pull which may be used in conjunction with either of the E's. One leg/knee = 3 or 4 pedals and 3 levers, RKL, LKL and VK.

Who would argue with Buddy ?

Obviously some folks love the transition of the E raise to E lower split on two knees.I had that on one of my Steels way back but have since moved them both to the left knee, where I also drop 6 on the V lever. But I do not use that V lever with the E lower as others may. I never found it "felt normal" to use the V lever even with the E raise when I dropped 5 on that V lever. Others love it !
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Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

Tommy Detamore · From: Floresville, Texas

I have always lowered my E's on RKL. A couple of years ago I acquired a nice PP that had the E lowers on LKR. The guitar had been set up by the late Bryan Adams and it played great. And since I didn't know how long I would keep that guitar I decided to leave the setup alone and try to adapt to way the majority of the world does things ðŸ˜‰.

After a few weeks I adjusted to it pretty well, but I began to miss a few combinations and licks that were in my vocabulary that actually required the E changes to be on different knees in order to be executed smoothly. So after maybe 15 gigs and a couple album projects with that guitar, I bought my bolt-on PP that just happened to have been set up by Lynn Stafford with the E lowers on RKL. Boy, it was like a homecoming!

I can certainly see advantages to having the E changes on the same knee, but for me I prefer the split way. In the case of a PP, having them split does make the adjustments of the knee lever placement a bit critical, as the E raise lever will move inward as the E lower is engaged. That is the "nature of the beast" in PP land, and it requires some tweaking to get the lever positions adjusted optimally, so that the inward-moving E raise lever doesn't collide with the stationary knee during the lower, thus interfering with the change.

One thing I can almost guarantee if you decide to make the switch is that on your first night out some hotshot steel player will decide to show up at your gig to make you squirmðŸ˜³!
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Dustin Rigsby · From: Parts Unknown, Ohio

I've had guitars in both configurations. I prefer to have my E's split. I started out with standard emmons setup but found the sho-bud setup more comfortable to play. It seems to me that knee levers with reversing mechanisms always seem to have a little bit longer throw. I am not very tall and have a short inseam, so the levers I use the most I want to have the shortest throw. Your mileage may vary.....
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I keep my E raises and lowers on the same knee because the E lowers get used together quite nicely with all three of the levers that aren't E string changes, and the F lever can work with a couple of them.
If you split them up, you'll lose the ability to use some of the other combinations.
- E lowers/B lowers: if you practice a smooth application of one with the release of the other, it's a beautiful tritone resolution or transition from major third to a V7. This works handy for me with the B lowers on LKV and the E lowers on LKR
- E raises/B lowers: could be interesting, but I've never explored it much.
- E lowers/6th string drop (whole tone): kinda inverse A pedal, moving the 6 to the 5 tone, and a neat scale move when you're in the G#m form too, pulling the 1 to the 7
- E raises/6th string drop: looks interesting, pulling the 5 to 4, but I've not explored it much (you'll find me saying that a lot about things relating to the E raises: probably my least used lever).
- E lowers/2nd string drop: GORGEOUS moves in both the B7 and G#m forms
- E raises/2nd string drop: pulls 2 down to 1, allowing either a move into or out of unison, also allowing you to release the A pedal for a C#7
If you split the E changes, you'd have to give up some of these combinations.
I keep them together because I don't want to give up any of those combinations.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Like Bobby D, I started out playing Day then swapped to universal. The first decision I made was to put E lowers on RKR, but I left the F lever where it was for the time being and it's still there.

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