| Author |
Topic: Yet another bar noise question... |
Slim Heilpern
From:
Aptos California, USA
|
Posted 12 Mar 2017 7:10 am |
|
I'm new to pedal steel playing (less than 1 year), have spent a lot of time watching other players and am fascinated by bar technique (among other things).
Anyway, one thing that seems to be extremely common is to keep the round nose end of the bar just beyond the top string being played. This made sense to me, to not cover more strings than necessary, which should produce less bar noise.
However, I've noticed in my own playing that most of the bar noise is generated by the lower round-wound strings (something which is exaggerated by the 12-string extended E9th and C6th tunings I'm using) . So I began to experiment last night doing the opposite of the norm, moving the bar in the opposite direction as I play, so that I'm not covering more low strings than necessary at any given time.
I found this to be a bit confusing visually and would take a lot of getting used to, but I also noticed an obvious improvement in bar noise (which hasn't been a problem, but less noise seems like a good goal). I also didn't notice any significant difference in tone as long as I distributed the pressure against the bar evenly.
Obviously, there are licks that absolutely require the usual approach, so I would only use this alternate technique where it made sense to.
But there must be a down side that has yet to occur to me or more folks would be playing this way. So, I'm curious, does anyone else do this? I know it doesn't look as cool, but....
- Slim.
_________________
Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com |
|
|
|
Tom Beck
From:
Farmington Missouri
|
Posted 12 Mar 2017 9:21 am Bar
|
|
| I'm pretty new at this too, and that is an interesting question. They do make a bar that is rounded on both ends. It seems to me that would be for playing as you described. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 12 Mar 2017 9:23 am
|
|
There is always going to be some noise from the bar sliding along the strings, either vertically or laterally. Most of it will be indiscernible to a listener and drowned out by other band noise. You could try eq'ing some of it out on your amp though.
The technique you are describing involves additional left hand movement and would probably confuse me too. With all the other things to be aware of while playing steel, this would not be high on my list.
I have a habit of lifting the bar off the lower strings when playing on the uppers. This is a carryover from playing non-pedal steel and especially dobro, where I use a lighter bar. I believe right hand blocking should be taking care of that, so that's one of my little projects. |
|
|
|
Brian Saulsman
From:
Washington, USA
|
Posted 12 Mar 2017 10:41 am
|
|
I think there is more than one reason why your suggestion is not the standard way to use the bar, but I am not a good enough player to definitively tell you what's correct technique wise. When I started I took lessons for 6 months, and my instructor (John McClung) suggested using the left thumb to mute unwanted noise from the wound strings.
I would recommend some lessons with someone who is qualified to direct your progress who can specifically address your concerns.
Remember - all those steel players who's sound is essentially flawless were able to do play that way without pushing the bar past the wound strings - that seems pretty convincing to me.
Brian Saulsman
_________________
All the best
Brian Saulsman |
|
|
|
Slim Heilpern
From:
Aptos California, USA
|
Posted 12 Mar 2017 1:11 pm
|
|
| Brian Saulsman wrote: |
...
Remember - all those steel players who's sound is essentially flawless were able to do play that way without pushing the bar past the wound strings - that seems pretty convincing to me.
Brian Saulsman |
Agreed, but my question is simply whether or not anyone is doing it the other way, and if not, why, since it does appear to give a better signal-to-noise ratio?
I'm happy to go down the traditional path (and I'm already am doing that), but it would be nice to know _why_ the traditional way is best, if indeed it is, or is this simply a case of everyone does it that way because everyone does it that way -- which seems unlikely.
_________________
Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com |
|
|
|
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
|
Posted 12 Mar 2017 1:56 pm
|
|
You need to get better at controlling the bar. You will not get better by changing how and where you hold it when you run into a difficulty. You will also not get better at holding the bar by changing your eq settings.
With that said you have your thumb on your left hand and the edge of your right hand sitting right there ready to mute those low strings.
As you improve your left hand your problem will go away. Focus on playing in tune more than anything else with your bar. If you do that other problems will evaporate.
_________________
Bob |
|
|
|
Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
|
Posted 12 Mar 2017 2:11 pm
|
|
| If you want to eliminate most all of the noise then use a powder coated bar. Thats what I use in the studio when the steel is dominate on a slow song. = bar noise gone. |
|
|
|
Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
|
Posted 12 Mar 2017 7:39 pm
|
|
Bob H. has got the straight goods here (as usual). Your left thumb and your right palm edge/heel of your palm are what you need to really get working for you.
That said,a powder coated bar (or a Tribotone,if you can get one) will improve your "signal to noise", as will picking with authority.
For single notes, or diads on adjacent strings, try lifting the back end of the bar and playing only with the tip. That bullet end is there for just that reason.
Happy woodshedding, eh? 
_________________
Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
|
|
|
Slim Heilpern
From:
Aptos California, USA
|
Posted 12 Mar 2017 8:16 pm
|
|
Thanks all for the helpful comments, truly appreciated.
I certainly agree that I need to develop more bar control (how did you know? ), and just about every other kind of control as well.
And the powder coated bar for studio work sounds intriguing, the one demo I heard a while back wasn't very convincing (comparing bars back-to-back) but I should try one for myself...
Anyway, those (and the other) suggestions don't actually answer the question I'm asking -- I'm really just wondering if anyone else does this thing I asked about up top. So far it sounds like the answer is 'no'... 
Thanks again!
- Slim.
_________________
Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com |
|
|
|
Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
|
Posted 13 Mar 2017 12:10 am Re: Yet another bar noise question...
|
|
| Slim Heilpern wrote: |
I'm new to pedal steel playing (less than 1 year), have spent a lot of time watching other players and am fascinated by bar technique (among other things).
Anyway, one thing that seems to be extremely common is to keep the round nose end of the bar just beyond the top string being played. This made sense to me, to not cover more strings than necessary, which should produce less bar noise.
However, I've noticed in my own playing that most of the bar noise is generated by the lower round-wound strings (something which is exaggerated by the 12-string extended E9th and C6th tunings I'm using) . So I began to experiment last night doing the opposite of the norm, moving the bar in the opposite direction as I play, so that I'm not covering more low strings than necessary at any given time.
I found this to be a bit confusing visually and would take a lot of getting used to, but I also noticed an obvious improvement in bar noise (which hasn't been a problem, but less noise seems like a good goal). I also didn't notice any significant difference in tone as long as I distributed the pressure against the bar evenly.
Obviously, there are licks that absolutely require the usual approach, so I would only use this alternate technique where it made sense to.
But there must be a down side that has yet to occur to me or more folks would be playing this way. So, I'm curious, does anyone else do this? I know it doesn't look as cool, but....
- Slim. |
Slim,
It sounds like you are describing what many players call “tracking with the barâ€, which is a very common technique. However some of your other descriptions of what you are doing are not clear to me. Rather than spending a lot of time asking you questions about what you are doing, here is an approach you may want to consider.
How the bar is held is a very important factor in avoiding bar noise. Like everything else on pedal steel, holding the bar properly requires very precise technique to sound good.
Here is how I’ve explained it to students—in 12 steps:
1. “Corral†the bar: To keep the bar straight, “corral†the bar between your left-hand middle finger and thumb. Use the least amount of thumb pressure necessary to keep the bar lined up against your middle finger. This relaxed “corralling†will allow you room to roll the bar for vibrato. Try to keep your left hand relaxed—otherwise you won’t be able to play even a one-hour gig much less a three or four hour one without your hand cramping up.
2. Middle finger: Make sure the middle finger keeps the bar exactly parallel with the frets for good intonation. Most players I’ve seen position their middle finger so the fingertip extends slightly (about 1/4 inch) beyond the front (the round nose) of the bar; this prevents accidental string noise from adjacent higher strings, and also helps in muting higher strings when you are “bar-tracking†and moving to lower strings. If you are doing it properly, you should notice that the tip of your middle finger is bumping up against the adjacent higher string and muting it.
3. Index finger: Put a bit of pressure on the top of the bar with just the end joint of your left index finger; use just enough pressure to get clear sounding notes without any string buzz. This means that pressure is being applied to only about one inch of the bar from the front (round nose) end of the bar. Don’t worry right now about applying pressure on the rest of the bar; most of the time you will not need it if you are using “bar-trackingâ€. Your left hand ring and little fingers gently rest on the strings behind the bar to prevent unwanted overtones.
4. Vibrato: Try practicing your vibrato by slowly rolling the bar slightly with your index finger, keeping it “corralled†between your thumb and middle finger. Make sure your left hand is relaxed as possible, and that the bar stays parallel with the frets.
5. “Bar-trackingâ€: Always keep the front inch or so of the bar (where you are applying the most pressure) over the strings being played. One inch covers four strings on most pedal steels; if you are playing a wider “grip†than that (like strings 3, 4, 10) you will need to temporarily add some pressure to the back end of the bar with the ball of your index finger.
6. “Bar-tracking†exercise #1: If you are targeting strings 3, 4, 5 to play, try positioning the bar as described in Steps 1 to 5 above. If you are doing it properly, you should notice that the tip of your middle finger is bumping up against string 2 and muting it. You should be able to play strings 3, 4, 5 with clear sounding notes. If not, apply slightly more index finger pressure on the top of the bar.
7. “Bar-tracking†exercise #2: Now target strings 4, 5, 6. If you are doing it properly, you should notice that the tip of your middle finger is bumping up against string 3 and muting it. You should be able to play strings 4, 5, 6 with clear sounding notes. If not, apply slightly more index finger pressure on the top of the bar. Check your vibrato.
8. “Bar-tracking†exercise #3: Once you can do Step 7 well, practice targeting strings 3, 4, 5; then strings 4, 5, 6; then strings 3, 4, 5 again and check that everything mentioned in Steps 5-7 is still working the same way.
9. “Bar-tracking†exercise #4: Now practice Step 8 again one fret higher.
10. “Bar-tracking†exercise #5: Next, try targeting strings 5, 6, 8, and once again check that everything mentioned in Steps 5-7 is still working the same way.
11. “Bar-tracking†exercise #6: Next, try targeting strings 6, 8, 10 and once again check that everything mentioned in Steps 5-7 is still working the same way.
12. “Bar-tracking†exercise #7: Finally, try moving from strings 3, 4, 5 to strings 4, 5, 6 to strings 5, 6, 8 to strings 6, 8, 10—and back again. Try it at different frets. Make sure that everything mentioned in Steps 5-7 is still working the same way. If it is, congratulations--you are now able to “bar-trackâ€! And you shouldn’t have any more bar-noise problems.
I’m not saying that this is the Only Way to hold the bar; I’ve seen other ways. However this is what works for me, my students, and is how most of the master players that I’ve seen seem to do it, so I’d suggest this as a good starting point.
I hope this is helpful.
-Dave |
|
|
|
Marco Schouten
From:
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
|
Posted 13 Mar 2017 3:35 am
|
|
It is a good question that I've asked myself in the past as well: why pull the bar towards you so that they don't slide on the top strings? The unwounded strings hardly produce any bar noise, so why isn't it the other way around? Push the bar to the front so that it doesn't drag on the wounded strings?
_________________
----------------------------------
JCH SD-10 with BL XR-16 pickup, Sho-Bud Volume Pedal, Evidence Audio Lyric HG cables, Quilter Steelaire combo |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 13 Mar 2017 4:29 am
|
|
You should be muting the lower (unpicked) strings with your palm or the little finger of your right hand! That will take care of 90% of the noise, and the rest is covered up by the sound of whatever strings are being picked. Coated bars, special strings, and reverse tracking of the bar are simply not needed...once you learn proper right-hand playing and muting techniques.
 |
|
|
|
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
|
Posted 13 Mar 2017 4:55 am
|
|
| Slim Heilpern wrote: |
Thanks all for the helpful comments, truly appreciated.
I certainly agree that I need to develop more bar control (how did you know? ), and just about every other kind of control as well.
And the powder coated bar for studio work sounds intriguing, the one demo I heard a while back wasn't very convincing (comparing bars back-to-back) but I should try one for myself...
Anyway, those (and the other) suggestions don't actually answer the question I'm asking -- I'm really just wondering if anyone else does this thing I asked about up top. So far it sounds like the answer is 'no'...
Thanks again!
- Slim. |
Everybody who plays pedalsteel has had to deal with this problem. All of us have tried what you are talking about at some point. It does not work. It is a waste of time.
_________________
Bob |
|
|
|
John Goux
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 14 Mar 2017 11:34 pm
|
|
Bar-wound string noise is much more an issue on 12 string, with those heavy wound strings. If you are a dedicated pick blocker on 12, even more so.
I too stumbled on the same tracking solution...scooting the bar forward off the low strings, onto the less noisy plain strings.
It does work.
It is a non traditional way to operate your bar hand. It looks a little odd to those who have been playing long enough to have strong opinions.
Think of it as another tool in your tool chest. Use it when necessary. When it comes to stopping notes and noise, anything goes.
J |
|
|
|
Slim Heilpern
From:
Aptos California, USA
|
Posted 15 Mar 2017 5:31 am
|
|
| John Goux wrote: |
Bar-wound string noise is much more an issue on 12 string, with those heavy wound strings. If you are a dedicated pick blocker on 12, even more so.
I too stumbled on the same tracking solution...scooting the bar forward off the low strings, onto the less noisy plain strings.
It does work.
It is a non traditional way to operate your bar hand. It looks a little odd to those who have been playing long enough to have strong opinions.
Think of it as another tool in your tool chest. Use it when necessary. When it comes to stopping notes and noise, anything goes.
J |
Thanks John, for confirming that what I've been doing over the last few days isn't totally nuts -- I move the bar forward for specific licks where the other methods mentioned don't quite cut it or are not as effective. Indeed, yet another tool.
- Slim
_________________
Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com |
|
|
|
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
|
Posted 15 Mar 2017 6:45 am
|
|
| John Goux wrote: |
Bar-wound string noise is much more an issue on 12 string, with those heavy wound strings. If you are a dedicated pick blocker on 12, even more so.
I too stumbled on the same tracking solution...scooting the bar forward off the low strings, onto the less noisy plain strings.
It does work.
It is a non traditional way to operate your bar hand. It looks a little odd to those who have been playing long enough to have strong opinions.
Think of it as another tool in your tool chest. Use it when necessary. When it comes to stopping notes and noise, anything goes.
J |
John , Would you encourage a student who is just starting to learn how to flat pick on an acoustic guitar to dampen the 6th string with his left hand thumb every time he plays only the top 5 strings and then move his hand back into normal position when he wants to play the 6th string because that pesky string rings when he doesn't want it to ?
Holding the bar over the top strings of a steel is an extended technique that comes in very handy when you want to play a piece that uses low open strings and moving upper string chords. To use it as a short cut that bypasses learning how to control the bar seems unproductive to me.
Another thing that has not been mentioned that can help the low string problem is to check the gauges of the rollers at the nut. That can help make the strings more even.
I also "track" the bar when I play. The difference with what Slim is talking about is that I do not change how I hold the bar to play different groups of strings. My bar is over the low strings when I play the higher strings. It just isn't making a scraping sound unless I want it to. Look into what Dave M. posted about tracking. His practice suggestions are pretty great.
_________________
Bob |
|
|
|
Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 15 Mar 2017 11:22 am
|
|
Slim, are you able to get a nice wide vibrato using the lower half of the bar? For me, ease of vibrato would be sacrificed by using the butt as the 'business end' of the bar... I manipulate the nose between my finger tips and the other end just goes along for the ride.
I guess bar control and finesse in general seems easier with the main downward pressure coming from the finger tips rather than the palm. Something for you to investigate and compare. |
|
|
|
Slim Heilpern
From:
Aptos California, USA
|
Posted 15 Mar 2017 12:48 pm
|
|
| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
Slim, are you able to get a nice wide vibrato using the lower half of the bar? For me, ease of vibrato would be sacrificed by using the butt as the 'business end' of the bar... I manipulate the nose between my finger tips and the other end just goes along for the ride.
I guess bar control and finesse in general seems easier with the main downward pressure coming from the finger tips rather than the palm. Something for you to investigate and compare. |
Interesting point Tucker. It hasn't been a problem for me so far. I'm only pushing the bar forward for certain licks where I'm going to be moving the bar during a long sustain (either for vibrato or sliding to another fret). If I'm using a rolling vibrato, then there's naturally no bar noise, but if I'm using a wide vibrato by sliding the bar back and forth, I just apply the pressure near the middle of my fingers, not the tips (or palm). But it certainly seems reasonable that my take on this will change as I develop more control over time.
And hey, this is all still new to me. I'm likely doing lots of wrong things. Thanks to the responses so far on this thread, I'm paying more attention to things like lifting the back of the bar, but I still find some circumstances where pushing the bar forward gives me a cleaner sound. And to be clear, I don't think all bar noise is bad, sometimes it's a great effect!
- Slim.
_________________
Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com |
|
|
|
Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 15 Mar 2017 1:26 pm
|
|
For what it's worth, I switched over to 12-U for a year and half. Ran into the same problem of bar noise because of the fat windings on those two lowest strings.
That's when I learned to put my left thumb down on the strings and leave it there. Noise was still there, but much better. Also, it's really good technique to block lower strings as your track the bar up to higher strings, so it's recommended to play with your thumb laying on the strings. I found that noise was only a problem at home at low volume. Playing with others, it was a total non-issue.
Have you run into trouble catching the butt on the lowest strings when pulling it back toward you? I sure did. My guitar didn't have gauged roller nuts so those lower two or three strings were quite a bit higher than the others and I wasn't using a 12-string bar. And that's when I started concentrating on putting most of the downward pressure toward the tip. Putting any pressure on the butt really made the problem worse. |
|
|
|
Slim Heilpern
From:
Aptos California, USA
|
Posted 15 Mar 2017 2:14 pm
|
|
| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
...
I found that noise was only a problem at home at low volume. Playing with others, it was a total non-issue.
|
The situation I actually care about with respect to bar noise is when recording, where I'm always trying to get really clean tracks, so I can add extra sustain as needed via automation, expansion, or compression.
| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
Have you run into trouble catching the butt on the lowest strings when pulling it back toward you?
...
|
No, since I'm lifting the butt a bit when I do that.
- Slim.
_________________
Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com |
|
|
|
John Goux
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 15 Mar 2017 11:58 pm
|
|
Bob H, to answer your question:
Would you discourage a young student named James Hendrix from playing with his thumb over the 6th string? Would you belittle a newbie Thumbs Carlyle because it is impossible to play the instrument that way?
One fantastic thing about 6 string is that everyone who touches the instrument plays it differently. It is inspiring to have such a cornucopia of different techniques and sounds.
Wouldn't it be nice if pedal steel was played so differently by so many people? Oops, it actually is!
John |
|
|
|
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
|
Posted 16 Mar 2017 6:25 am
|
|
John,
I understand your point. And I fully concur.
And to answer your question I encourage students to try new ways of playing and go with what works for them. I even teach extended techniques. I started playing by laying strips of sheet metal on the neck and banging on it with mallets. I would saw the strings off with dinged up metal rods. I also drove from NYC to Virginia to study with Buddy Charleton on a regular basis along with trips to Nashville and Texas to spend one on one time with any great steel player that would put up with me.
I hope you understand my point that when somebody has a problem that is an absolutely typical beginning player issue that there might be some value in common practice.
My perspective of the string noise issue is sorta like somebody saying they have found a solution to there car rolling when they park by making square shaped tires. People that are experienced driving a car would suggest using the parking brake even though square shaped wheels would be pretty awesome
_________________
Bob |
|
|
|
