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Topic: Chord list and inversions |
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Ulrich Sinn
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2017 2:58 pm |
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just to clarify the terminology:
- an inversion is a chord where the bass note is NOT the root of the chord.
e.g.:
for C7: C - E - G - Bb
first inversion: C (the root) over E (third in bass)
second inversion C over G (fifth in bass)
third inversion C over Bb (seventh in bass)
- normally inversions are being thought of as such only for triads and seventh chords.
- ninth chords already become ambiguous.
C over D (ninth in bass) will most likely not be heard as a tonic.
There is typically a bunch of rules attached, what can/should be doubled or not, which way the voices should lead.
_________________
Redline Resophonic
MSA Superslide 12-string Reece Anderson tuning, dropped down to B
MSA “The Universal†in Reece Andersons Bb universal tuning, raised to B
TomKat Amp
how I earn a living |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 28 Feb 2017 11:54 pm
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So are the following called inversions
C, E, G, Bb
E, G, Bb, C
G, Bb, C, E
Bb, C, E, G
G, C, E, Bb
I call them inversions.
But are you saying
C, G, Bb, E is a voicing and not an inversion as the root is still in the bass.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Ulrich Sinn
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 7:29 am
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
C, G, Bb, E is a voicing and not an inversion as the root is still in the bass. |
Yes, this is how it is typically called. The above is a C7 chord in root position. Nothing inverted there.
e.g. on guitar:
B(6th string) - G (4th) - D(3rd) - G(2nd)
is a first inversion G triad.
or:
Bb (6th string) - G(4th) - C(3rd) - E(2nd)
is a C7 chord in 3rd inversion.
But I think the term inversion has more to do with the meaning of the bass note, and by extension in which register the lowest note sounds.
So yes, the distinction between inversion and voicing is useful.
_________________
Redline Resophonic
MSA Superslide 12-string Reece Anderson tuning, dropped down to B
MSA “The Universal†in Reece Andersons Bb universal tuning, raised to B
TomKat Amp
how I earn a living |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 8:15 am
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| Ulrich Sinn wrote: |
| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
C, G, Bb, E is a voicing and not an inversion as the root is still in the bass. |
.......
So yes, the distinction between inversion and voicing is useful. |
I tend to agree.
The bass note, or more specifically the lowest tone in a given chord voicing determines the inversion.
If you have ever worked with figured bass, it's all about chord inversions and the intervals above the bass note.
The principle still applies, but you can also have many different ways of voicing the remaining chordal tones.
The most common would be the open and closed voicings, which are pretty much what they sound like, an open voicing having wider spaces between pitches and close voicings being rather like most of our open tunings, adjacent intervals in a chord.
So you can have a chord in any inversion, and it can then be voiced many ways. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 8:47 am
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I actually understand this
But I beg to argue that since in some voicings on Lap Steel Guitar the root is not played at all - leave it to the bassist sometimes.
For my thinking to simplify:
I will call any permutation that is not in scale degree order an Inversion. Just makes more sense as for me.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 8:56 am
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
I will call any permutation that is not in scale degree order an Inversion. Just makes more sense as for me. |
The proper terminology would be voicing. Inversion refers to the note in the bass. You can have open or close voicings. An open voicing is what you get when you move the upper voices in the chord, so if you have C G E, you would have a root position open voicing. E C G would be a first inversion open voicing.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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Bill Sinclair
From:
Waynesboro, PA, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 9:15 am
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
For my thinking to simplify:
I will call any permutation that is not in scale degree order an Inversion. Just makes more sense as for me. |
Why? Now that you know the correct terminology, why not use it. Fine, if you're just talking to yourself but it seems that a big part of your lap steel journey is communicating what you're learning. Don't expect others to get on board with your arbitrary definition. You'll be hindering other peoples learning process instead of helping.
By the way, I'm coming at this from the standpoint of a music theory neophyte. I'm just learning the difference between a voicing and an inversion myself from this thread so I appreciate your starting this thread in the first place. Sometimes I feel like my head's gonna explode but keep 'em coming. |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 11:36 am
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I surrender. I'll call them voicings. LOL.
Good input guys. Now that begs the question hmm... I have been watching some videos from a well known Jazz teacher that just calls them inversions. Wonder why he doesn't say the voicings. Interesting.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 12:32 pm
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
. I have been watching some videos from a well known Jazz teacher that just calls them inversions. Wonder why he doesn't say the voicings. Interesting. |
I can answer this (waves hand)
I'm a jazz musician from New Orleans.
I also have a MM in theory and Comp.
Many jazz musicians understand theory but use non-classical names for the same things.
Such as:
m7b5 for half diminished chord
not using correct spellings, avoiding double flats and double sharps.
not referring to secondary dominants as such
and various other things.
Also, jazz theory has always been somewhat behind classical theory. Frankly, when I was a teenager and had some lessons with Ellis Marsalis, he said there is no "jazz theory", it's all based on what has already been done in the classical realm.
So it's no surprise that terms like "voicings" and "inversions" become somewhat nebulous in the non-classical world.
Last edited by David M Brown on 1 Mar 2017 9:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lee Cecil
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 3:15 pm inversions
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| I only use the term inversions when talking about triads. Voicing is a better term when talking about altered chords, because you're not just talking about roots, thirds and fifths. I've never tried to describe or notate an altered chord as an inversion. |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 9:17 pm Re: inversions
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| Lee Cecil wrote: |
| I only use the term inversions when talking about triads. Voicing is a better term when talking about altered chords, because you're not just talking about roots, thirds and fifths. I've never tried to describe or notate an altered chord as an inversion. |
Well, when you write an arrangement for a big band and are voicing altered chords, it's a good idea to also pay attention to the bass notes, which by definition will determine the name of the chord inversion.
I know it often seems academic, but there is always the issue of chord inversion, based on the interval above the bass note, thus determining the inversion, and the other middle and upper voices, which then need to be "voiced" so to speak.
Anyway, for practical purposes it's more about voice leading than anything, particularly on lap steel. |
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Lee Cecil
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 2 Mar 2017 5:26 am inversions
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| It goes without saying that voicing is important. What I was trying to do was address the terminology issue. An inversion is just a shorthand way to refer to a specific voicing of a triad, or sometimes a 7th chord, but usually only triads. By way of example, if I want to play a jazzy sounding altered C7 on piano, I may play the root and flat seventh in my left hand and then a second inversion Am triad in the right. Using the term "second inversion" was my way of letting you know that the fifth of that Am triad was the lowest note in the triad voicing in my right hand. As another example, a three fret forward slant on the dobro on frets 5,6,and 7 can be referred to as a second inversion F major triad. Using the term first inversion or second inversion is simply a shorthand term for a particular voicing of the three notes that make up a triad. And yes, some people also speak of a third inversion in the case of seventh chords, which puts the seventh as the lowest tone in the chord. A "voicing" on the other hand, is a broader and more general term. |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 2 Mar 2017 2:19 pm
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For the sake of the integrity of this thread, I hope this chart is useful. Any reputable theory book will provide this information.
At its simplest:
1) An inversion is determined by the lowest note of a triad or seventh chord. It can be any note within that chord.
2) A voicing is the way in which the notes are distributed. These may be in closed position, where the notes are placed as close together as possible, or in open position where there can be gaps. Closed position and open position can be referred to as two different styles of voicing.
To determine the inversion of a two handed piano chord, look at the lowest note. Voice it any way that sounds good.
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Lee Cecil
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 2 Mar 2017 3:26 pm voicings
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| Correct. And there are other types of voicings beyond closed and open. Jazz pianists often refer to "Bud Powell" voicings, "shell" voicings, or quartal voicings. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 3 Mar 2017 1:22 am Re: inversions
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| Lee Cecil wrote: |
| It goes without saying that voicing is important. What I was trying to do was address the terminology issue. An inversion is just a shorthand way to refer to a specific voicing of a triad, or sometimes a 7th chord, but usually only triads. By way of example, if I want to play a jazzy sounding altered C7 on piano, I may play the root and flat seventh in my left hand and then a second inversion Am triad in the right. Using the term "second inversion" was my way of letting you know that the fifth of that Am triad was the lowest note in the triad voicing in my right hand. As another example, a three fret forward slant on the dobro on frets 5,6,and 7 can be referred to as a second inversion F major triad. Using the term first inversion or second inversion is simply a shorthand term for a particular voicing of the three notes that make up a triad. And yes, some people also speak of a third inversion in the case of seventh chords, which puts the seventh as the lowest tone in the chord. A "voicing" on the other hand, is a broader and more general term. |
This is what I was watching. A well respected jazz player and teacher simply call ALL chords even extensions/altered chords instead of saying voicing he said
1st inversion - root as the melody note
2nd inversion - 3/b3 as melody note
etc. and he was showing this for all the notes of the chord whether it was a triad, 7th, 9th, etc
He also did the same thing again but this time with those notes in the bass.
But I agree with you guys that if the correct term is closed and open voicings for the sake of communicating which is why we name these things I will use that.
But to be honest closed voicings, open voicings, inversions...
Thats a lot of terms to simply communicate a different way of permutating(I avoided the word inversion) the notes of a chord
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 Mar 2017 4:21 am
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| Guy Cundell wrote: |
For the sake of the integrity of this thread, I hope this chart is useful. Any reputable theory book will provide this information.
At its simplest:
1) An inversion is determined by the lowest note of a triad or seventh chord. It can be any note within that chord.
2) A voicing is the way in which the notes are distributed. These may be in closed position, where the notes are placed as close together as possible, or in open position where there can be gaps. Closed position and open position can be referred to as two different styles of voicing.
To determine the inversion of a two handed piano chord, look at the lowest note. Voice it any way that sounds good.
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Thanks for posting - this is exactly what I was trying to explain in my earlier post. |
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Ulrich Sinn
From:
California, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2017 9:47 am
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| Quote: |
1st inversion - root as the melody note
2nd inversion - 3/b3 as melody note |
This is just plain wrong.
_________________
Redline Resophonic
MSA Superslide 12-string Reece Anderson tuning, dropped down to B
MSA “The Universal†in Reece Andersons Bb universal tuning, raised to B
TomKat Amp
how I earn a living |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2017 10:41 am
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Agreed - that is completely incorrect, regardless of how well respected the teacher in question is.
Honestly, after reading through this thread, I'm pleased at the clarity of the responses. It's not actually that difficult to understand the difference between an inversion and a voicing, and neither is it unnecessary to know the difference, if your goal is to comprehend and play jazz music on a chordal instrument.
Most jazz players think a bit differently about chords than the way you're going about it, although I love your desire for thoroughness, which is admirable.
Consider the possibility of thinking about chords as one of three types - Major, minor, and dominant, and all the voicings in each group as largely interchangeable, other than when melody considerations require a specific top note. This thinking opens up the harmony a bit, in my view.
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 4 Mar 2017 12:02 pm
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| Christopher Woitach wrote: |
.....
Consider the possibility of thinking about chords as one of three types - Major, minor, and dominant, and all the voicings in each group as largely interchangeable, other than when melody considerations require a specific top note. This thinking opens up the harmony a bit, in my view. |
I remember watching Guitar stars TV show with George Benson as a Judge and he said the same thing.
Major, Minor and Dominant. Good advice.
Thanks again guys. This is why I love this steel family. I'm going for it.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2017 6:18 am
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| Christopher Woitach wrote: |
Consider the possibility of thinking about chords as one of three types - Major, minor, and dominant |
I think that way, with the addition of diminished and augmented/altered chords, although I guess those could be included under "minor" and "dominant" |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2017 8:06 am
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Both the diminished and altered chords are in the dominant category - lower any note in a diminished seventh chord 1/2 step and it's a dominant seventh chord,
Min7b5 (half diminished) is a minor type
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Lee Cecil
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2017 8:58 am website
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Christopher,
Clicked on the link to your website earlier, and those live solo guitar clips are off the hook! Haven't listened to the duos yet, but I definitely will. I see some of my favorite standards listed.
Thanks for posting. |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2017 11:11 am
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Thank you, Lee!!! That made my day, brother...
More stuff, pedal steel, too, on YouTube, if you're interested
Thanks again - really needed a boost today!
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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