2nd String Half-Stop not Returning to Pitch...

Ben Waligoske · From: Denver, CO

Hey ya'll,

Been dealing with a new issue on my Super Pro for the past couple of weeks. The 2nd string lower (D# to D to C#) is getting stuck somewhere in between the half-tone lowered pitch and the open string pitch when engaged. It just gets stuck "flat" and needs to forcibly be returned to the open pitch each time. The feel/pitch from the engaged half-lower to the whole-lower is fine, it just won't return to the proper open pitch after using the lever (RKR).

I've got my return springs on the 2nd string, 9th string (which is also on that lever) and the 3rd string on my C6 neck tightened all the way, and that seemed to work for a few days, but now it's acting up again and I'm not getting the right result. It does seem to return better if the action on the lever is hard and fast, but a delicate action (as one would use to play with feeling usually) highlights the problem.

Here's a YouTube video I just made that hopefully shows the issue: https://youtu.be/GgQC2OfXxow

Another local steeler mentioned to make sure there's plenty of slack in the cross shaft and to oil things up, the latter of which I've done, and the former of which I think is ok, although I'm not totally certain as I'm still learning to be a PSG mechanic. What part of the assembly actually loosens the cross shaft?

It does get dry here in Colorado in the winter, so that might not help... but I'm starting to hit a wall so figured I'd ask the forum.

What am I doing wrong?

Rich Upright · From: Florida, USA

From your video, it looks like your return spring may be sacked out. You might try removing the spring, cutting a little off,effectively making it shorter & tighter, and then re-installing it. OR, if you have a source for Sho-Bud parts (not sure where since I don't play one)and can get a new return spring, that may work. You may need a tad more slack in the rod, too.
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Ben Waligoske · From: Denver, CO

Thanks Rich, I'll see about figuring something out regarding the spring itself, either a repair or replacement, and see if that helps.

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Looks like the second finger is catching or rubbing against something. Place a thick towel on a table with the SB placed on it upside down. Using a flashlight watch moving parts of the second finger. Finger may be touching the first or third finger and causing it to not return properly each time. May be a broken string end in the changer also. Also check the string tension on the ninth string. Check the pull rods for 2 & 9 and make sure there lined up straight with the holes each is going through on the fingers. Threads in front of plastic tuning nuts may have one catching on the entry point. Oil changer and just let it sit for about an hour or so while on the towel. If all fails just put your index or middle finger on each part and feel where the click is at. This is called process of elimination.

Ben Waligoske · From: Denver, CO

Thanks Billy. I suppose I'm just gonna have to keep at it, these are all great suggestions but the symptoms persist. Doesn't seem to be a string end or anything locked in there, and the pulls are lined up straight enough from what I can tell. It's been oiled a whole bunch from both the top and bottom of the changer too, so unless there's somehow some friction being created from the fingers rubbing against one another that I can't see, I'm not sure what's left to mess with other than the return spring(s) as previously suggested.

Frustrating to be sure, as I've got the rest of the guitar playing pretty much just how I like it, but this one's got my number so far...

Ben Waligoske · From: Denver, CO

Also, just to try something else, I just swapped the return springs from String 2 and String 7, since I don't have a lower on string 7 on this guitar. The problem is still there unfortunately... a lightly pressed "half-stop" is still sticking, while a quick fast action operates mostly normally... Shocked

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Take a Phillips head screwdriver and push in the lower scissor, and let it go slowly. If THAT returns, the problem is somewhere between the lever and the changer.
I'm betting something is binding when it's standing up, but behaving itself when belly-up.
Are all your pulls straight and non-interfering?
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Ben Waligoske · From: Denver, CO

If I follow you correctly Lane, that may have helped narrow down the problem. From the changer end, pushing with a screwdriver on just the lower finger (basically pushing on the un-used lower pull-rod hole, this is a 3up/2down guitar) the change returns properly every time and is nice and smooth.

So, I think I may have something sticking somewhere on the lever/pulling mechanism, and not in the changer itself. I'm in the studio all day today and will be bringing my Encore instead, but will spend some more time on this ASAP and report back. Thanks as always for your help Lane, and everyone!

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Assuming the half stop is aftermarket (and therefore quite possibly reusing a rod), inspect its rod for the tiny burrs caused by set screws digging in.
These could be hitching as it passes through one of the collars.
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Lynn Stafford · From: Ridgefield, WA USA

Ben,

Lane is correct in helping you try to isolate the changer itself from the rest of the linkage. From what you wrote after poking at the lower finger and observing the result, it appears you need to focus on the linkage.

As Billy suggested, you might want to see if exposed threads on the pull rod could be hanging up on the finger hole. If not, look elsewhere within the knee lever linkage for the problem.

I noticed in your video that the spring retainer needs to be re secured to the C6 3rd string pull rod where it attaches to the puller (bell crank).

By the way, the under carriage on your guitar looks nothing like any stock Super Pro I've ever seen. What do you know about the history of this guitar?
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Jerry Jones · From: Franklin, Tenn.

Disconnect the other two rods from that lever (at the cranks) and see if the 2nd string will complete the return.
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Jerry Jones

Ben Waligoske · From: Denver, CO

Hey ya'll, just having a chance to get back on here with any detail...

Jerry, I tried disconnecting the other two pull rods (from the 9th string on the E9 neck and the 3rd string on the C6) but unfortunately the problem persists, in fact it's worse as the added tension of those 2 changes is now out of the equation, so the lone 2nd string change that's left just sticks wherever I leave it.

At this point, it seems to be narrowed to something sticking on either the lever assembly or perhaps on the pull rod/hex nut etc. itself, right at the finger hole as Lynn and Lane mentioned. I've got an hour or two here to mess with it, so I'll report back soon.

Also Lynn - as to your question, I'm not completely certain of the history of this Super Pro, although I'd love to know. I bought it from Damir a little over a year ago and the supposition was that it was a Marrs conversion job, but I checked with Jeff Surratt and he said it didn't look like any Marrs job he'd ever worked on, and he's worked on a lot. Another older player that saw it and played it mentioned that Paul Franklin occasionally did work on Sho~Buds like this, but I can't confirm that's the case with this guitar nor would I be especially inclined to believe it without hearing from Paul himself. I believe I read that a gentleman in Idaho owned it at one point, as did Paul Wade I think, but I don't know any more than that.

I'm not too worried about who did the conversion, because it plays great and with original 705s on both necks, sounds real sweet too. Now if I can just sort this 2nd string out!

Ben Waligoske · From: Denver, CO

Here's some progress perhaps?... the 2nd string pull rod has a couple of pretty obvious scrapes/wear points that seem to be binding when the pull is engaged. Here's an attempt to show a close up:

I just went ahead and swapped out the pull rods from the 9th string (E9) and 3rd string (c6) changes to see if that helped, but unfortunately it didn't, even with the "offensive" pull rod down on the C6 neck.

At this point I'm wondering if I should just get a whole new set of 3 pull rods for this lever and see if that sorts the problem. Any thoughts?

Jerry Jones · From: Franklin, Tenn.

Is the back side of your lowering finger catching on the lowering spring?
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Jerry Jones

Ben Waligoske · From: Denver, CO

Jerry, it doesn't seem to be. From what I can tell with a flashlight and looking close, no contact between the finger and the pull rod or spring is happening. It's just still getting stuck on the 2nd string pull, even WITHOUT the 3rd string C6 pull hooked up (which currently is using the "offensive" pull rod with the notch!) The 2nd and 9th string pull rods I swapped over are in pretty good shape, but the problem persists.... Shocked

Ben Waligoske · From: Denver, CO

Ok, I've got brand new strings on now to eliminate that variable, and the same issue continues... here's one more video to try to help illustrate what's going on...

https://youtu.be/6_zbmUXG7vI

At this point it seems like it has to be something within the knee lever assembly itself that is sticking, given that pressing on the individual lower fingers (2 and 9 E9 and 3 C6) results in a positive, accurate return to pitch on all 3 strings in question for the given change, so it doesn't seem to be a changer related issue (or pull rod for that matter, although I'll replace the worn rods too). Everything is oiled, pulls are lined up straight, no string ends etc. in the changer... what gives?

I feel like I'm so close to solving this, but still no cigar... if I can't sort it out in the next week or two, I may just send the guitar with a friend to Nashville and have Jeff Surratt work on it and really doll it up, but I'm hoping to avoid that for both cost reasons and the need for 2 working guitars to help with many rehearsals, gigs, etc on my calendar...

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I'm reaching the extremes of my knowledge and the advice of other kind souls so far in the thread hasn't done the trick (although I appreciate everyone's input!)... Shocked

Dick Wood · From: Springtown Texas, USA

I heard a scraping noise that sounds like the threads of the pull rod are dragging as they move through the finger hole. You shouldn't hear that kind of noise unless something is rubbing somewhere.

Try removing the pull rod and take a flat screw driver and manually push the raise and lowering fingers on that string to check for binding.
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Ben Waligoske · From: Denver, CO

Thanks Dick. I've messed with all of that and it does not seem to be a changer issue. I'm talking with Michael Yahl to get some new pull rods just to eliminate that variable too...

But when I look at the changer end and operate the knee lever while carefully watching the rods pass through the changer holes, I don't see them sticking. I feel the friction in what seems to be the knee lever itself somehow...

At this point, all I can say is I really appreciate everyone's ideas and advice. I'll keep at it but if I can't sort it out before my buddy drives to Nashville in a couple weeks, I'm also now considering sending this guitar to Jeff Surratt at Show Pro for some TLC!

Willie Sims · From: PADUCAH, KY, USA

BE SHURE THE BOLT THAT HOLD;S THE KNEE LEVER TO THE BRACKET,IS.NOT TOO TIGHT.

Dale Rottacker · From: Walla Walla Washington, USA

Ben, I was having a similar problem with mine that made the guitar almost unplayable... I never knew what I was going to get when I picked the 2nd string... If I had raised it in the course of playing and the next time Iâ€™d touch the 2nd string open it was going to be sharp and if I had lowered it last and then touched it open it would probably be flat... I had looked under the guitar in the changer several times without seeing the problem... yesterday I had it upside down once again and noticed the bell crank for the 9th string looked a little askew... sure enough the set screw on the bell crank was loose (Mullen) and once tightened, it appears that FINALLY my problem is solved.... Havenâ€™t read through this tread in a while so maybe already got it fixed, but if not and you havenâ€™t checked this, perhaps this could be your answer too.
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