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Topic: Dekley question. (changer replacement with another brand) |
Ben Godard
From:
Jamesville NC
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Posted 9 Jan 2017 5:20 pm |
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I have an older Dekley S10. Not a Slim Line Dekley.
My question is Has anyone ever replaced the changer on a Dekley with a different brand changer? I found that Dekley changers have issues. This is one if the worst ones I ever tried to adjust. I have a spare Dekley changer but Ivwould like to put a different changer on if possible. I know it's not plug and play but I'm pretty handy and I have connection with a machine shop if necessary.
Last edited by Ben Godard on 9 Jan 2017 7:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Jan 2017 6:58 pm
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Have you tried talking to Jim Smith here on the forum? He used to work for Dekley.
Yours is the first harsh comment I've heard about their machinery.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ben Godard
From:
Jamesville NC
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Posted 9 Jan 2017 7:08 pm
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Lane, I didn't mean to sound harsh even though it did come out that way. The Dekley guitar is got one of the best sustains I've ever seen. I fell I live with that part of it. But I have worked on two Dekleys and both chAngers gave me trouble the same way. Of coarse this one is worse. It could be that the changer is wore out. I just wish I could put a more modern changer in it because everything else on the guitar is awesome!
I do prefer an E66 pickup but that's just my taste, the Dekley pickup has its own good sound but it's not as "hot" or lively as I like |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Jan 2017 7:14 pm
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I speak with no authority or confidence, but the similarities with MSA in many aspects make me think that an MSA changer MIGHT drop in, but geez, there are a hundred ways in which it might be bollixed up.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Buddie Hrabal
From:
Arlington,Texas USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2017 7:39 pm
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I don't know what kind of problem you are having but I have played Dekley many years both in the studio and on the road, I never experienced any problems. If you share your problem, I'll bet Jim Smith can stir you in the direction to get it fixed. They really are great guitars!
_________________
1975 Emmons P/P D-10, Sierra Sesion D-10, Dekley HS-210, Sho-Bud "Blue Darlin" V, Evans FET-500HV amp,Goodrich L-120 pedal |
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Ben Godard
From:
Jamesville NC
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Posted 9 Jan 2017 8:52 pm
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Ok the problem is that it doesn't seem to have enough travel in the changer to fully lower the 2nd (whole tone) It's get so but so far, and then after that, It doesn't lower it any further even though it is still pulling.?? And then on raises, I have the raise to go so far (maxed out) and then it just pulls the raise and and the lower simultaneously since their locked, thus negating the raise from that point. And then for some reason, it takes an abnormal amount of travel to raise my 3rd G# a simple half tone. It's takes more travel at the changer to get this raise than It does to raise the B's on the 1st pedal.
Im no pro but I've worked on guitars a fair amount. Even a Marlen pull release I hate to admit. That was a bear. But I am familiar about using the different hole positions to change the mechanical advantage thus affecting long easy throws or shorter stiff throws etc. I also know how to make sure that the raise pulls don't need to counteract any of the liwer pulls or vice versa and you have to leave a little "breathing room" for the pulls.
I oiled the changer a month ago or so. There is nothing abnormally slipping or moving or deflecting in the other mechanics.
Anyway, I hope that I am overlooking something simple but I can't imagine what. Any help would be greatly appreciated
Thanks for responding
Last edited by Ben Godard on 9 Jan 2017 9:13 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Pat Chong
From:
New Mexico, USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2017 8:55 pm
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I also share Buddy's comment about the Dekleys not being problematic. I have overhauled a Dekley changer and cleaned up another and they work fine........As Buddy asked: What problem are you having with the changer?
............Pat.
Ok. I entered this question as you answered. Being more specific, how much are you trying to lower the 2nd string? You said "fully", I figure 1 whole tone, right?
Looking at my changer, I see that the lowering scissor works independently from the raising scissor. So:
Check and see if yours are independent or stuck together.
Look if the spring is pulling the assembly all the way back to the plate.
If these are working right, see if you can add more play by adjusting the stop screw at the pedal.
Try these. If the problem still persists, let us know. As Mr. Lane mentioned, Mr. Jim would help.
.................Pat
Last edited by Pat Chong on 9 Jan 2017 9:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ben Godard
From:
Jamesville NC
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Posted 9 Jan 2017 9:08 pm
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Responded to above but it's kinda hard to explain in detail but I tried my best
Thanks |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Jan 2017 9:14 pm
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Just for shits and giggles, have you tried removing both the string and lower return spring on the offending strings, then moving both the finger and the scissors? I had an MSA that I'd not quite reassembled right, and the finger didn't want to move, so the scissors just worked against each other because they offered less resistance than the finger did. So I had to take it out again, grease the axle and clean the nylon washers and reassemble making sure nothing was binding.
The 2nd string should be able to go at least to C#, probably even C. To borrow a golf term, that's a chip shot. Something is either rubbing or binding.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 9 Jan 2017 9:33 pm
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If that is an old two-raise / two-lower changer, replacing it with anything may cause access problems. As the Dekley has a very special changer mount, the mount should be kept or copied to keep the typical "Dekley sound" intact.
(I have replaced everything but the original fingers and scissors on a Dekley changer with good result, but that is a three-raise / two-lower on a slimline. Not what you want.)
The 3d string half-tone raise usually requires the longest movement of all strings on all PSGs, although it vary slightly with type and gauge of that string.
For max lower, the hole/position closest to the lower-return spring must be used. Otherwise the lower may pull the raise scissor along as it reverses on the spring itself. In some cases the return spring can be slackened slightly for improved action, but too much slack will prevent it from returning properly to the stop. |
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Ben Godard
From:
Jamesville NC
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Posted 10 Jan 2017 3:57 am
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Ok. One thing that I did I don't normally mess with is the return springs. I had to nearly tighten them all the way. I did this to make sure it returned all the way and I had saw that a lot of the raises were starting to pull the lower part with it so I tightened them up to prevent that.
What is the correct procedure for adjusting those return springs. Seems to me than its needs just enough to make it fully return against the plate. But any further tightening would just make for a stiffer action , but should not have much to do with anything else. But there again, I've always avoided adjusting them but I felt I was left no choice this time.
And btw, I use a slightly larger string size than the Average set. I use Paul franklins guage sizes that he mentioned on his rig run down YouTube video. For instance, I use a .012 for my 3rd string and a lot of the other strings are a tad thicker as well. My other guitars have the same gauge set |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 10 Jan 2017 4:45 am
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| Ben Godard wrote: |
| Seems to me than its needs just enough to make it fully return against the plate. But any further tightening would just make for a stiffer action , but should not have much to do with anything else. |
On a Dekley, as on most (if not all) all-pull changers: if a lower-return spring is tightened up more than it needs to be to ensure proper return to neutral, a long lower action will transfer pull onto the raise scissor as the spring gets stretched too far, gets too tense, and start acting as pivot point. Thus the changer simply cannot lower any further, and instead will start to raise the string again.
I adjust a "problematic" lower-return spring so that it seems to return reliable from a lower, and holds the lower-scissor in place against the stop-plate during raises, and then I tighten it half-a-turn more on the screw just to make sure. This procedure usually works fine, unless the scissors are gunked up.
In cases where "extreme" lowering is needed and where no amount of adjustment will allow the lower-scissor to go far enough and return reliable, I have drilled a hole in the lower-scissor in line with (or just below) the lower-return spring, and hooked up the pullrod there so it pulls in-line with the spring. This prevents "reversing to raise", as the spring can not act as "pivot point" when stretched. This "last resort" solution complicates fine-tuning, as there's no space for a nylon nut to tune the lower on in the changer itself. But, at least it works. |
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Ben Godard
From:
Jamesville NC
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Posted 10 Jan 2017 10:01 am
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Well I just learned something right then. I think the problem might just be in over adjusted return springs.
That is the one thing I never messed with until now. I will give your adjustment procedure a try now. Kinda excited now to see what it's gonna do.
But I won't have in fixed in time to play so I guess I will take my old reliable Emmons D10 PP to play. 😀 Until the next practice |
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Ben Godard
From:
Jamesville NC
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Posted 13 Jan 2017 4:48 pm
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I think I've worked out most of the problem now. For this guitar, right at the chsnger, it takes a lot of throw for the whole tone raise on string 1 and the half tone raise on string 3
Also as for the lowers, it takes a lot of travel at the changer to lower the 2 a whole tone.
The rest of the changes don't require but around half that travel than the ones mentioned above.
I adjusted the return springs like suggested. It did help and I have gotten most of the issues taken care of. Just wish it didn't take so much travel of a finger for those changes.
Anyway, my only issue now, is dealing with the typical hysteresis (strings returning sharp after a lower) for the strings that have both raise and lower. Of coarse this guitar doesn't have any lower return compensators. I guess I'll just have to find a happy medium |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Jan 2017 5:01 pm
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If you have an extra cross-shaft and bellcrank you can rig a Zum or Franklin style drop return regulator (it's not really a compensator). The shaft mustn't be allowed to rotate.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 13 Jan 2017 5:01 pm
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| Hysteresis should be next to inaudible (can be measured) for a well-balanced Dekley mechanism. Make sure nut-rollers are lubed and move freely. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Jan 2017 7:21 pm
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Yes, but it's not always roller nut problems, slowing down the return of lowers encourages accurate returns
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 13 Jan 2017 8:46 pm
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Right, Lane, we are in-line on that. And a correctly set "rubber bumper" (as I call it) will ease the final microns of return to neutral from a lower, and thus reduce the effect of "string pitching sharp until it settles back to neutral tension" - only takes time.
However, if string stays sharp after lower until it has been raised and then let back to neutral, it indicates that there's a "slip/hang" for the string itself, either on the changer-roller or the nut-roller, or both.
Not much one can do with string slipping/hanging on the changer-roller other than to keep the top of the changer clean and oil-free. Nut-rollers may need oil on their axle to reduce friction.
A correctly set "rubber bumper" (as I still call it) may help reduce some of the effect of "slip/hang" too, in that it adds an extra "bump" that may sort of kick the string out of a "hang". |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 13 Jan 2017 9:06 pm
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Ben, I've never even seen a Deckly other than pictures. But these statements got my attention.
| Quote: |
I think I've worked out most of the problem now. For this guitar, right at the chsnger, it takes a lot of throw for the whole tone raise on string 1 and the half tone raise on string 3
Also as for the lowers, it takes a lot of travel at the changer to lower the 2 a whole tone. |
| Quote: |
| The rest of the changes don't require but around half that travel than the ones mentioned above. |
My first guess. The raise scissor is moving forward on the second string lower. Even a tiny bit makes a difference. If the lower return spring is properly adjusted? And the raise scissor is still moving forward. It's probably sticking at the rivet. You'll have to at least oil the rivet. It's best to clean and then lube. If you don't want to take the changer out and apart? I'd remove the lower return spring, And work the raise and lower scissor back and forth till there's no drag between. Of course clean as much as possible and lube.
For the raises that seem to take too much throw. Make sure the lowering scissor is not moving forward. If it is. It's likely sticking at the rivet also. You'll need to free them up as above mentioned.
One other guess is someone has taken the changer apart and failed to reassemble it correctly. If so. I can't help with that.
Just sitting here killing time and guessing. Hope you get it up and going soon.
And one last tid bit. I been told on some guitars. Forget the brand. But if the lower return spring is too tight. It will cause the raise scissor to move forward a tad.
Disclaimer! I've never actually played or worked on a pedal steel. But I have read about it on the net.
b. |
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Ben Godard
From:
Jamesville NC
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Posted 14 Jan 2017 12:39 am
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Thanks Bobby! I did have the 3rd finger and scissor sticking but I've worked around it now. I know you are a hell of a steel tech. I've seen your work. I always listen to your advice.
And thanks to all of you guys here on this posts. Your advice on how to adjust the changer return springs was priceless. I never knew how critical that is. In fact, that's the magic trick to get something just right.
I have now gotten most of the hysteresis problem out. I have learned a lot about the changer of all pulls now. I've found that that's where the magic is at in properly tuning an all pull Psg.
My only problem now is cabinet drop causing my 6th to lower. I don't think I ever had a guitar not to have that problem. Well not much I can do there without a compensator. Guess I will learn to compensate it with my bar hand like everyone else. Lol
Anyway, can thank everyone enough!! I learned critical info on this thread |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 14 Jan 2017 4:43 am
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Ben, does your S10 have a "tone lip" - notch in frame around sound-board in the changer area being cut out so the sound-board can vibrate more freely at that end ?
My S10 (Slimline) has that, and it caused what is referred to as "cabinet drop" detuning. I could actually feel the stop-plate (where the return-springs are attached) move with pedal action and varying string tension.
Of course, I fixed all that when I modified my S10 about 25 years ago. The other Dekleys I have owned did not have that built-in weakness, but they also did not have quite the same sound... |
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