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Author Topic:  Attention Jazz Players
Christopher Woitach


From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Post Posted 19 Dec 2016 3:57 pm     Reply with quote

Hahahah - I didn't check my spelling - thanks for correcting!

It is a truly brilliant and clear book, in my opinion - small world, indeed!
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Dan Beller-McKenna


From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
Post Posted 19 Dec 2016 4:44 pm     Reply with quote

Confession: I had to look it up to make sure I was remembering it correctly! :0)
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Ron Funk


From:
Missouri, USA
Post Posted 19 Dec 2016 8:30 pm     Reply with quote

Bob - Thanks for your response

My C6th setup is exactly the same as BE's, but I had never considered the use of pedals and knee levers in the manner you illustrated.

I (generally) play scales / parts of scales without use of pedals and levers...thinking that having too much to think about during 'heat of the moment' will cause my mind to jam.

I'll explore your illustration for use in ballad style slurs, etc.

The journey continues !
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Jim Cohen


From:
Philadelphia, PA
Post Posted 20 Dec 2016 10:01 pm     Reply with quote

Dan Beller-McKenna wrote:
...If I may add one item to Richard’s list: scale patterns. Not exactly sure why, but I feel compelled to construct scales in “blocks”; i.e., keeping everything two frets apart, not shifting the bar in back and forth one fret at a time within the scale pattern. So, for example, I would prefer this:

Tab:

G  major: 7th string root no pedals

1 (D)
2 (E)                        
3 (C)                        7
4 (A)                  7   9   
5 (G)            5   7
6 (E)      5   7   
7 (C)   7
8 (A)   
9 (F)
10 (C)


To this:
Tab:

1 (D)
2 (E)                        
3 (C)                     6   7
4 (A)                  7      
5 (G)            5   7
6 (E)      5   7   
7 (C)   7
8 (A)   
9 (F)
10(C)


The same applies for scales with the root on other strings. I suppose my intuition tells me that the uniformity and predictability of two-fret patterns (what I called “blocks” above) will make things easier to remember and will facilitate moving among different scales for head melodies or solos. Also, this should make it easier to apply chromatic notes when wanted, since these will always fall outside the “block.”

Thoughts?


Well, I wouldn't play it that way because I would find it difficult to phrase smoothly all that 2-fret back-and-forth movement. Instead, I would probably play that passage like this (still only traversing 2 frets):



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Philip Sterk


From:
Nashville, TN
Post Posted 9 Jan 2017 10:12 am     Reply with quote

I really enjoy this thread, so I want to keep it going a bit...

When I sit down to improvise, I find that in terms of jazz, a very hard thing to articulate (with speed and fluidity) is playing single note arpeggios of the scale tones over two octaves+. For instance, if you played only the scale tones of a Bb7 over two octaves, (1,3,5,b7 and so on...), you actually need to cover a lot real estate on the neck in a C6 tuning. Both across the strings or up the neck (no pedals). If you listen to any jazz styled solo, Especially a horn player, an arpeggiated run like this would likely be used...

Any thoughts?
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Jim Cohen


From:
Philadelphia, PA
Post Posted 9 Jan 2017 11:28 am     Reply with quote

Philip,

If you have a KL that raises your 4th string A to Bb and/or another lever that raises your Cs to C#s, you can get this pretty easily, without traversing too much territory. Here are some options to consider if you haven't already:


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Philip Sterk


From:
Nashville, TN
Post Posted 9 Jan 2017 12:24 pm     Reply with quote

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the reply. I do have those changes (along w/ a few others) and I use them a lot!

I guess my question was really about the musical ideas and the difficulty to excersice them... (Which is always the real challenge isn't it? Smile ).

If one were to transcribe a sax solo and try to adapt it to the steel. Say a Sonny Rollins solo...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMvUgrD4N74
There are harmonic leaps and nuances that are difficult to cover because of the technical aspects of the steel as a machine. As opposed to the saxophone of which that idea was created on. Not impossible, but not exactly second nature...

Because so much of this music was created on machines quite different than a steel, I find that to be big hump to get over. Of coarse there are lots of players out there that can do wonders! And we get to learn from the way they see and approach the steel in jazz. Anyway I think this is just another aspect that sets the steel apart from others instruments, and keeps us digging for more ideas. Very Happy
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Jim Cohen


From:
Philadelphia, PA
Post Posted 9 Jan 2017 12:30 pm     Reply with quote

Philip, I definitely agree with you that it is difficult to replicate a jazz sax solo on steel. I was just trying to answer the specific (and much more limited) question you asked, i.e., how to play a 2-octave Dom7 arpeggio without using too much real estate. But I guess you already knew that, huh? Wink
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Dan Beller-McKenna


From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
Post Posted 9 Jan 2017 12:35 pm     Reply with quote

I'm still trying to digest the idea of a Sonny Rollins western-themed album. Whoa!
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Philip Sterk


From:
Nashville, TN
Post Posted 9 Jan 2017 12:37 pm     Reply with quote

Oh yeah!
Sorry I wasn't too clear. It was a poor effort on my part to talk about scale tones Rolling Eyes
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Dan Beller-McKenna


From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
Post Posted 11 Jan 2017 6:35 am     Reply with quote

Hoping to soak up some more knowledge from you jazz players. So, I am taking lessons from a six string teacher and he keeps mentioning the "seven scale positions" on the six string as a fixed/agreed-upon entity on six-string. Is there anything comparable on the ten-string C6 steel? I got some very useful ideas from Ron (thanks, Ron!) along these lines, but wondering whether there is any standardization among steel players on this.
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Jim Cohen


From:
Philadelphia, PA
Post Posted 11 Jan 2017 6:48 am     Reply with quote

Good question, Dan. When I started guitar lessons with Jimmy Bruno, he taught me his 5 fingerings (down from 7 which he used to teach) and I tried to replicate the idea on C6. The trouble I ran into is that there are so many options of where to play any given note that, in any region of the neck, you can play the same thing 3-5 different ways, depending on (a) whether you choose to go across the neck, or up the neck, or any of several combinations of the two; and (b) whether you want to avoid any pedals or, if not, which pedals and KLs to include in the movement. The whole point, though, is to drill it endlessly until it becomes second nature. For me, there were really too many options to want to commit them all to rote muscle memory and I could never settle on just 5 (or even 10) to cover everything. You might need 5 just to cover one of the neck regions. YMMV.
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Dan Beller-McKenna


From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
Post Posted 11 Jan 2017 6:55 am     Reply with quote

Thanks, Jim. yeah, that is how it has felt to me so far (although I've only been at this for a few months). Seems like the biggest conundrum is this: playing in positions encourages steel-specific licks and runs the danger of always reverting to the same licks, BUT there are so many possible ways to play a sequence of two, three, or more notes on pedal steel, that without positions one is out at sea without a compass. Fortunately I have a lifetime to work on this. (Wait....I'm pushing sixty! I'd better get goin'!!!)
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Philip Sterk


From:
Nashville, TN
Post Posted 11 Jan 2017 10:31 am     Reply with quote

I'm still learning too, and that's what keeps playing this thing so much fun. Very Happy

Along with what Jim and Dan are saying, There are SO MANY ways to play the same notes, but I think the fluidity and nuance change with each position.

Every time I have taken a lesson with a great player, one of the first questions I will ask is "How do you approach playing this thing?". Which sounds like a real open ended question, but in reality, everyone has "the thing they do" to get their desired results. Often I get answers that take the lesson way beyond just learning licks. My job (as a student) is to understand how they connect it all together to make it musical. I just find that part so fascinating.

Barry Harris talks about connecting musical ideas a lot. http://www.barryharris.com/ He still gives group jazz classes, here in NYC that cover basic ideas. I have yet to make it out, but, its on my to do list. You don't have to even bring an instrument. If you every have some time, check out some of his videos. https://youtu.be/uTTNL-RHEMs?t=1m He talks thru some rudimentary ideas, but he opens up useful ways to approach the basics. I find it to be kind of entertaining too.

When I work on the steel ideas, I try to practice in episodes; focusing on different lever or pedal combos (or no pedals too) or improvisational ideas. Almost thinking of those as a base points for scale positions. Eventually, hoping to recall them in a musical way down the road. Laughing
I think in one of Doug Jernigan's C6 instructional books, he touches on a few different scale positions for the same scale. Then it is left up to you to adapt them.
But I wonder if anyone has put together a more definitive "conservatory" for C6, I've never seen the Jerry Byrd instructional book, (well inside the book), but considering how thick it was, I'd imagine he talked thru some non-pedal scale positions???
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