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Topic: A question about string-gauges |
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 21 Dec 2016 8:31 pm |
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I have acquired a tenor banjo. It's quite old (1930s?) but is in good shape. I really have to tune it to the top four strings of the standard guitar but, when I try that, it feels sloppy and undertones and overtones almost prevail over the actual notes I'm playing.
I can't grasp the science behind this - do I need to fit heavier gauge strings to achieve a better, stronger tone? Its scale is pretty short - the length from tailpiece to nut is less than 25" whereas the same measurement on my 5-string banjo is 28".
Does anyone have a suggestion? I know I should adapt to one of the standard tenor banjo tunings but I'm about to have to read parts for a show so I can't afford distractions!
So - do I go heavier, or am I missing something?
Many thanks.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 22 Dec 2016 3:31 am
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Yes, a heavier gauge for the same pitch will yield greater string tension. This chart, maybe, can provide some guidance. I know nothing about proper (or safe) tensions on a banjo but maybe it can serve as a reference.
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 22 Dec 2016 4:55 am
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Many thanks, Jon. That's illuminating. I don't know what is on it now as I simply re-tuned it with its existing strings.
I will try the gauges for the 24" scale and see what I get.
I'm obliged to you.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Michael Maddex
From:
Northern New Mexico, USA
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Posted 22 Dec 2016 9:22 am
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Jon's chart appears to be for Steel Guitars. Look at the string for 25.5" high E: .014" That's close to a Fender String Length and most players rarely go over a .012" on that string. The chart looks good, but I would consider it to be for Heavy Gauge Strings. However, like Jon, I have absolutely no experience with Banjo Strings. I have an Ernie Ball chart somewhere, too, but I didn't turn it up in a quick search, so I don't know if it's the same one or not. If it turns up and it's different, I will post back.
Good Luck and Have Fun! 
_________________
"For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert." -- Arthur C. Clarke |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 22 Dec 2016 10:27 am
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D'Addario has a string tension chart here - http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf
I've used this for a long time to get tension-balanced sets, there is a bit of calculation involved.
I just noticed that they have a relatively new online tool to compute either:
1. String gauges based on instrument parameters and desired tensions
or
2. String tensions based on instrument parameters and string gauges
Using option #1, I used the tool to compute gauges for a roughly uniform 18 lb tension per loop-end string (more or less like a set of 11-48 gauge set on an electric guitar) for a 22" scale tenor banjo tuned like the top 4 strings of a guitar:
| Code: |
String Pitch Gauge (in.) Tension (lb)
1 E4 .012plain 17.39
2 B3 .016plain 17.35
3 G3 .022nickelwound 17.61
4 D3 .030nickelwound 18.41 |
The tool, which is here - http://stringtensionpro.com/ - has a wizard which makes it pretty easy to change the instrument parameters. For example, if the scale length is longer and you'd like more or less tension, those are easy to specify.
I do these kinds of calculations all the time to build roughly-equal-tension sets for steel, guitar, and especially slide guitar, where the action and tension are critical for the way I play. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 22 Dec 2016 10:40 am
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Thanks, all.
One problem is that my 1930s Weymann tenor banjo has no provision for ball-end strings - just tiny posts that will accommodate only loop-end strings.
Right now my Alvarez 5-string actually sounds better for the job ('20s-style rhythm banjo) than does the 'proper' instrument! Better tone with a longer scale, perhaps?
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 23 Dec 2016 5:02 am
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I recommend nylon strings for banjo.  |
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Jamie Mitchell
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 26 Dec 2016 2:43 pm
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| Quote: |
| One problem is that my 1930s Weymann tenor banjo has no provision for ball-end strings - just tiny posts that will accommodate only loop-end strings. |
you can pop the ball off the end of the string, and just use the loop that was around it. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 26 Dec 2016 3:45 pm
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The guy at the music store tried that on three successive strings, Jamie, and each time the loop itself would break.
I figured if he couldn't do it then it was probable that I wouldn't manage it either. The winding was too near the ball and extremely tightly wound. I suggested it because it seems, in theory at least, to be possible.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Michael Maddex
From:
Northern New Mexico, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2016 4:33 pm
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Elderly sells Single Loop-end as well as Ball-end Strings. I wouldn't know if they are the right length and material for your banjo, but it might be worth looking into. Good Luck with this one!
_________________
"For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert." -- Arthur C. Clarke |
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Jamie Mitchell
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 27 Dec 2016 10:19 am
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
The guy at the music store tried that on three successive strings, Jamie, and each time the loop itself would break.
I figured if he couldn't do it then it was probable that I wouldn't manage it either. The winding was too near the ball and extremely tightly wound. I suggested it because it seems, in theory at least, to be possible. |
huh. weird.
i've done it on D'Addario strings.[/i] |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 27 Dec 2016 11:59 am
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Loop-end strings are normal for banjo, mostly cheaper banjos take ball-ends. There is no actual problem finding loop-end strings. My experience with pulling ball-ends off modern strings and using the loop is like yours - the loop is too tight on the ball and I wind up compromising the integrity of the loop by forcing it off the ball. With some of them, it may be reasonable to finesse it off, but as easily and cheaply as loop-end singles are at these types of gauges, I have only done that in an emergency like at a gig and no other option.
For single strings, I have had pretty good luck with juststrings.com. For example, branded loop-end single strings are here - http://www.juststrings.com/loopendsinglestrings.html - they have a wide variety of both D'Addario and Ernie Ball loop-end single gauges.
Or if you can find your gauges and want 'em cheap, there is a decent, but not as good, selection of gauges in bulk loop-end strings (by the dozen) here - http://www.juststrings.com/loopendbulkstrings.html - probably should stay away from the bronze-wound mandolin loop-ends, there's only 29" of winding. I suspect that anything but the shortest of tenors would be longer than that.
The only made-up set of loop-end banjo strings in the ballpark of the gauges I computed above that I know about are Irish Tenor banjo strings; e.g., here's a set of D'Addarios that's just a few bucks - http://www.juststrings.com/dad-j63i.html - the gauges are (hi-lo) 12, 16, 24, 36; the two wounds are a bit heavier than I calculated above, but might be OK if your scale length really is in the 22" type of range. In fact, one of the reviews there stated that he used GDAE (lo-hi) tuning. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 27 Dec 2016 10:06 pm
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Thanks, Dave. I like the sound of the 12/16/24/36 set. That's what I'll try.
At our first rehearsal today (the show 'Chicago') I'm already disappointed in the tenor because I feel its string are too light. The sound designer on the show confirmed that he wasn't getting the same volume from it as he's used to hearing from my 5-string (an Alvarez) with the high G removed.
The Alvarez, though, is heavy and I'm switching so often (uke/mandolin/banjo) in the show that I wanted to save weight.
Those D'Addarios sound just the ticket - that's what I'll get.
Everyone's input is very much appreciated. I now have three days off before we begin in earnest - then it's a four-week run.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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