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Topic: Breaking 3rd string when restringing keyless |
Ross Shafer
From: Petaluma, California
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Posted 22 Sep 2016 8:34 am
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Are you selling it due to the 3 string issues? If so send me the tuner finger for that damn 3rd string and I'll pop a pin in it for you as per my picture. I'm 99% sure it'll fix it for you.
It's an easy part to take off the guitar. Just remove the string and turn the tuning screw until it disengages the finger. At that point you can just pull it from the bottom of the guitar....or it may just fall out if the guitar is upright. |
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Ross Shafer
From: Petaluma, California
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Posted 22 Sep 2016 11:34 am
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steve takacs wrote: |
Ross , or any other members reading this thread, whom would you suggest could do that "pin" addition - modification that Ross Shafer discusses and shows a photo of above?
Thanks Stevet |
Hi Steve, I missed this post of yours before posting the one above. It's an easy mod to do if you have access to a drill press or vertical mill and have the right reamer to insure a tight press fit for a 3/32" or 1/8" pin (McMaster Carr). The location of the pin is not all that critical as long as the string comes down and under it from the roller before being clinched by the securing screw. |
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Paul Redmond
From: Illinois, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2016 11:00 pm
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Sonny - I beg to differ with you re: the string being wound clockwise around the clamp screw. It should always be wound COUNTER-CLOCKWISE around its clamp screw so that the torque is always trying to pull the screw tighter, NOT trying to loosen it as is the case with the clockwise thing. You will never appreciate what I'm saying here until you're in the middle of a song in the middle of a gig and the sucker lets loose on you!!! It will ruin your evening for sure!!! ALWAYS counter-clockwise!!!
PRR |
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Tom Campbell
From: Houston, Texas, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2016 5:38 am
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Paul
I think you mean the string should wrap clock-wise. Your turning the tuning screw clock-wise...the torque on the string is clock-wise...which will advance the string clock-wise...result in it being tightened down.
I've strung many Sierras this way. If you loosen the tuning screw by turning it counter-clockwise, the counter-clockwise torque loosens the string. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 24 Sep 2016 7:45 am
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I think Paul's hypotheosis is totally correct,,,IF it is a direct hook up,,,straight to the hold down screw,,much like Lamar's tuners. However, when the friction created by the turns/bends in the string is added to the equation, the rotational torque on the hold down screw is TREMENDOUSLY reduced (as in my examples in previous post). Yesterday, as an experiment (I needed to change strings anyway) I backed off all the hold down screws on my Kline, WITHOUT releasing the tension on any of the tuning screws. All strings naturally detuned to some extent (3rd string more),,,but NONE came loose from the tuning finger,,,telling me that there is virtually no,,,or very minimal at most rotational torque on the hold down screw.
Last edited by Sonny Jenkins on 24 Sep 2016 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tom Campbell
From: Houston, Texas, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2016 8:51 am
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If its straight to the hold down screw it shouldn't make much difference.
I do a clock-wise, half loop, around the screw post. Clock-wise torque from the screw post assists the torque I am applying while pulling on the string.
There is a illustrated, three page description of this method on the Sierra website; in section 7 of
the Sierra manual. It is found under the "Support" heading.
I guess all keyless systems are not the same thus all string mounting techniques vary. |
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Paul Redmond
From: Illinois, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2016 6:26 pm
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To each his own, I guess. When the string is wound CCW, as the tuning arm is advanced and tension increases on the string, the "resistance" is now pulling on the underside of the screw head and it is pulling in a direction that will "torque" the screw head tighter. If you wind the string CW, it does just the opposite. Would you use a left-handed screw and a right-handed lockwasher? I think not!!! The "wrong-way" lockwasher would even tend to try to loosen the screw by adding torque in the wrong direction. The string is pulling the underside of the screw head as it's brought up to pitch. It may not seem like much, but the physics are in place. You can either pull the screw head in a manner that will help it stay tight, or one which will assist it in coming loose on its own. I have always chosen to keep my strings in place. COUNTER-CLOCKWISE!!! FWIW the late Jeff Newman was in my corner on this one and was quite emphatic about it.
PRR |
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Tom Campbell
From: Houston, Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Sep 2016 4:57 am
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Paul
It sounds like we are describing the same technique...right handed screw and the torque of the screw head assisting the string as the screw is rotated.
Where are you positioned in relationship to the guitar when mounting the string.
If you are interested in the Sierra string mounting technique for their style of keyless head, please refer to the manual I have suggested in my above posting.
Never had a string work loose. |
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Donny Hinson
From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Sep 2016 5:33 pm
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Tom Campbell wrote: |
The string is strongest on the first attempt...the screw threads normally won't break the string on the 1st attempt. It's the second or third attempt, with the same string, that will usually fail.
As you tighten the screw down, the revolving screw threads move the string downward. At this point the treads are your "friend". Keep constant tension on the string... |
That's poor design, or just poor choice of screws. Ideally, there should be no threads near the head of the screw. That portion of the shank of the screw, the first one or two threads, should be "cleared" (threads removed) to the minor thread diameter so that there was no chance they'd cut the string.
I don't have picture of a hex-socket head cap screw like this in my files, but below is a picture of a screw with a different head, but with the proper shank:
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Lee Baucum
From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 27 Sep 2016 9:39 am
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Here's my take.
If you wind the string clockwise, as the screw turns, it will be tightening the string; because, it's turning in the correct direction.
Once the head of the screw is tightened down properly on top of the string, I can't see how the string could have enough torque to turn the screw in one direction or the other.
I'm basing this on my experience with my Williams keyless guitar. I don't know about other brands. _________________ Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Jim Palenscar
From: Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2016 1:25 pm
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My 2 cents:
1-Do not wind the string a full turn or it will cut into itself as you tighten the screw.
2-Carefully inspect the area on the tuning finger to insure that it is flat~ if necessary you can add a very small washer between the screw and the string so that minimal abrasion occurs. |
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Lee Baucum
From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 27 Sep 2016 7:15 pm
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Jim Palenscar wrote: |
My 2 cents:
1-Do not wind the string a full turn or it will cut into itself as you tighten the screw.
2-Carefully inspect the area on the tuning finger to insure that it is flat~ if necessary you can add a very small washer between the screw and the string so that minimal abrasion occurs. |
Agreed. On my Williams, I wrap the string about a quarter of the way around the screw and then tighten it down. _________________ Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Will Cowell
From: Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 29 Sep 2016 5:05 am
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I wonder if anybody has seen the "capstan" equation. I did it in school at age 18 so this may be high school math in the US, or possibly early degree level, but it explains why wrapping a string partly around a pin, screw or other similar post (for want of a better word) exponentially increases its ability to hold tension, the more the string is wrapped.
So the retaining screw doesn't have to be done up tight at all. I never have problems on my keyless Williams. I do echo the advice about not wrapping more than one full turn because it will cause a stress raiser, and the string will cut itself.
Using a washer, as Jim Palenscar advises, is good because it removes concerns about what rotating the screw does to the string.
A properly selected clamp screw will have a shank without any threads just under the head - the difference between a "screw" and a "bolt"! _________________ Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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Sonny Jenkins
From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 29 Sep 2016 6:55 am
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Yes Will,,,I think THAT is the equation that I brought up several times,,,the FACT seems to be totally ignored. Last Monday I changed a .026 on my keyless lap steel. Instead of tightening down the hold down screw I just held the end on the string with my finger,,,and brought it up to pitch, no problem! Does that NOT negate the premise of strong rotational torque on the hold down screw? |
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Tom Campbell
From: Houston, Texas, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2016 9:17 am
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I doubt you can use that technique successfully on a Sierra keyless tuning head.. You are apt to run out of space with the tuning screw, i.e...bottoming out before you get it to pitch. I've tried taking the 3rd string (G#), from D# up to G# and the tuning screw becomes very stiff to turn...with out adding some torque to the string before tightening down.
Sierra uses a thumb type of tuning screw. Other brands may be/are different. |
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L. M. English
From: Augusta, GA, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2016 11:08 am Re: #rd string breakage on keyless
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I got the guitar form Scott, and the reason the string kept breaking, there was a rough edge on the assembly that needed to be smoothed out and walaa no more breaks! It also had worn screw heads on the tuner with one rounded out. Mr. Colvin was very helpful and is sending me a new set of tuning adjustment screws for the guitar. Someone had been over tightening the screws for some reason??? The guitar is now cleaned up and adjusted correct. L.M. |
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Charley Bond
From: Inola, OK, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2016 7:19 am 3rd Breakage
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Here is an idea.. I came up with it after I sold my Keyless.
Similar metals gall (friction is greater) One could try to match the string material (nickel to nickel or stainless to stainless) with special screws (don't forget to polish the underside of the head).
The nickel screw setup might require the use of a nickel washer.
Disclaimer>> don't know that this will work, It is just an idea. I sold my Keyless, because of 3rd string breakage.
The galling effect would require less clamping pressure to hold the string. |
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