| Author |
Topic: Melodic Minor Harmony Chords for C6? |
Nate Hofer
From:
Overland Park, Kansas
|
Posted 11 Aug 2016 10:00 am |
|
Are melodic minor chords for jazz threory possible within the realm of C6 tunings?
I intend to find out - starting with a C minor major 7.
Last edited by Nate Hofer on 11 Aug 2016 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Andy Henriksen
From:
Michigan, USA
|
Posted 11 Aug 2016 11:23 am
|
|
I wouldn't know what to do with such a chord, but it's always a good exercise to try to figure these things out. (As I learned after googling it), a CmMaj7 is C-Eb-G-B (makes sense - A Cm plus a Maj7 - duh!). So, what I would do (and just did cuz I was bored) is draw a quick sketch of all those notes on a C6 fretboard.
I see a potential full chord slant as XX5677. Lots of other partial chords available too, like XXX233 (contains no root).
Last edited by Andy Henriksen on 11 Aug 2016 11:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Scott Duckworth
From:
Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies
|
|
|
|
Tony Lombardo
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 11 Aug 2016 2:34 pm
|
|
| The minor major 7th is such an important sound when playing standards from the American songbook. It is that second chord in the "moving minor" archetype heard in "Blue Skies," "In a Sentimental Mood," "My Funny Valentine," and so many other classics. |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
|
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 11 Aug 2016 5:01 pm
|
|
This is called melodic minor harmony and its applications are very wide ranging. If you look at a melodic minor scale harmonized in thirds, you'd get
IminMaj7
IImin7
IIIMaj7+
IV7
V7
VImin7b5
VIImin7b5
I will leave it up to you to figure out how to make these chords, but I will say that you need to think smaller and creatively and use your ears to see if they work in context. For instance, within a minMaj7 chord lies two triads: a minor and an augmented. So CminMaj7 has Cmin and Eb+ (which also happens to be G+ and B+).
You can also use other extensions, so that a Gmaj triad played over a Cmin chord equals CminMaj9. By the way, when you see a chord progression the goes Cmin - CminMaj7 - Cm7, you can usually think of the minMaj7 as the V7 (in the case of C, it would be G7).
Do the math, learn that poem, etc.
But remember, ultimately, it has to sound good.
I took guitar lessons with Steve Khan for a while back in the 80s, and he showed me a really cool way of harmonizing scales that really didn't involve using thirds. Check out his book Chord Khancepts, which has an interesting slant on chord construction.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com
Last edited by Mike Neer on 11 Aug 2016 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Ricky Newman
From:
Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 11 Aug 2016 5:01 pm
|
|
| I tend to play it as a forward slant on strings 1, 3 and 4, leaving out the fifth. Cm(Maj7) would be 7X65XX. |
|
|
|
Nate Hofer
From:
Overland Park, Kansas
|
Posted 11 Aug 2016 8:24 pm
|
|
Right, Mike! I am working on the math. Mark Levine's The Jazz Book has been my music bible for the last year. (Digesting one verse at a time!)
C6 seems designed for major scale harmony chords but melodic minor harmony is another world altogether.
Here's a chord pattern I made
https://flat.io/score/57abf49bd58c4fa63ca87076-fig-6-73 |
|
|
|
Tony Lombardo
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 12 Aug 2016 1:17 am
|
|
I just played the harmonized scale Mike Neer posted, and I love the sound. (I did it on standard guitar, not steel.) Up until now, my use of the minor major 7th has been limited to the four-chord 'moving minor" sequence I mentioned earlier (for example Dm, Dm Maj7, Dm7, Dm6) that pops up often in standard tunes from the American Songbook. This morning, I'm going to get out my steel guitar and experiment with that harmonized scale that Mike posted. (I'll be in A6 tuning.)
Thanks again Mike
Tony L.
P.S. In the moving minor sequence, I usually play the IV7 instead of the Im6 (G7 instead of Dm6 in the example I posted earlier). |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 12 Aug 2016 2:21 am
|
|
| Nate Hofer wrote: |
Right, Mike! I am working on the math. Mark Levine's The Jazz Book has been my music bible for the last year. (Digesting one verse at a time!)
|
Just received my copy of the book recently so I started on the first few pages.
Seems like a solid foundation into understanding your instrument. I'm excited to see if I can finish it in a year.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Nate Hofer
From:
Overland Park, Kansas
|
Posted 12 Aug 2016 4:23 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| I'm excited to see if I can finish it in a year. |
Oh I didn't say I was finished!   I'm on my second pass through it now.
I'd love to be in a study group of steel players for this book. (And BTW, that's where my above notation for the melodic minor harmony came from.) Who's in!? |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 12 Aug 2016 8:27 am
|
|
I'm in definitely.
Are you going to create the group/post?
Mark Levine's Jazz theory book for steel guitar
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 12 Aug 2016 8:31 am
|
|
I'm on the first few pages of intervals. M2, m2 etc
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Michael James
From:
La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
|
Posted 12 Aug 2016 9:37 am
|
|
Not to put damper on this discussion but Melodic Minor is different ascending then and descending.
Ascending 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 1
Descending 1 b7 b6 5 4 b3 2 1
The scale you're all thinking of is called "Jazz Minor" which is the same as ascending melodic minor.
The "Jazz Minor Scale" is used more for soling than chording in the jazz world. Not that you can't think in those term but the chords that fall into this scale are complex and many times are chord substitution. For example I use the 4th degree of Jazz Minor over a tritone substitutions.
Common Applications of "Jazz Minor"
1st degree - Min(Maj7) scale
4th degree - Lydian b7 scale - Chords Like C9(#11) C13(#11) ect...
7th degree - Altered Scale - Chords Like C7(Alt), C7(#9,b9,b13,#11 ect...)
Sorry to open up this deep rabbit hole.
mj |
|
|
|
Nate Hofer
From:
Overland Park, Kansas
|
Posted 13 Aug 2016 9:00 am
|
|
Hey Michael, we need you in this book group. And ya know, the intention here is to discuss melodic minor harmony (as opposed to major scale harmony) and all its modes and chords rather than a single scale.
I'm no expert but I know a little about what's this book. Check out my flat.io link above to see exactly everything I know from the book on this. Which isn't much - yet!
Last edited by Nate Hofer on 13 Aug 2016 9:49 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
Michael James
From:
La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
|
Posted 13 Aug 2016 9:28 am
|
|
Are you talking about Mark Levine's Jazz theory Book? It's a great book.
I met Mark at an IAJE (International Association of Jazz Educators) convention when I was teaching jazz guitar at Winona State University in Minnesota.
I talked to Mark about a concept where he explained that there is no III chord. That the III chord is really a Susb9 chord. He smiled at me (because he knew I read his book) and said "I need to reword that chapter" then chuckled and proceeded to sell me a couple of his other book.
He also did a great Afro Cuban music masters class at that convention. A friend of mine who chaired University Wisconsin La Croosse music department asked me after the master class. "Did you know were beat one was in any of those music examples he players on the screen?" I said "heck no, That stuff is rhythmically way over my head". He said "Me to". lol |
|
|
|
Nate Hofer
From:
Overland Park, Kansas
|
|
|
|
Ricky Newman
From:
Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 13 Aug 2016 11:24 am
|
|
I'm seriously considering re-upping with Facebook after 5 years away in order to be a part of this reading group. It sounds like a wonderful idea.
I made a couple of charts based on the above posts. They may be helpful to some in seeing how "diatonic chords" are built and why they can be based on different scales.
The first chart show how the familiar set of diatonic chords (Imaj7, iim7, iiim7, IVmaj7, V7, vim7, viim7b5) are derived by selecting every other note from the scales that start on each white note of a piano. The second and third charts show how one can harmonize the ascending melodic and natural minor scales in the same fashion - by starting a new scale on each degree of any tonic scale.
As Michael pointed out, the ascending and descending forms of the melodic minor scales make the most sense when they appears as scales. It strikes me, however, that we often want to harmonize melodies, scalar or otherwise, in 2, 3 or 4 note voicing.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zssejspxytr43au/Diatonic%20Chords%20in%20Melodic%20Minor.docx?dl=0 |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
|
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 13 Aug 2016 1:20 pm
|
|
| Ricky Newman wrote: |
As Michael pointed out, the ascending and descending forms of the melodic minor scales make the most sense when they appears as scales. It strikes me, however, that we often want to harmonize melodies, scalar or otherwise, in 2, 3 or 4 note voicing. |
Unless you are talking about classical harmony, it's basically assumed that you are talking about jazz melodic minor, which is the ascending version of the scale.
Here is a tip for locating and playing the melodic minor scale: you think of it as a major scale with a flatted third, which makes it very easy to plot out.
C melodic minor is essentially a C scale with a flatted third: C D Eb F G A B C. Don't call it that, just make a mental note of it.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
|
|
|
Michael James
From:
La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
|
Posted 15 Aug 2016 5:27 am
|
|
Here's a little jazz minor trick for you all.
Lets say you have 7th chord that does not cycle V7 to I. For example
|C / / / |D7 / / / |Dmi7 / / /|G7 / / / |
The D7 chord has a specific function and I'm not going to go into that in this post as it's a very big discussion.
But an easy way for steel players to play over this chord is to play the arpeggio of the D7 chord.(D F# A C) and then play a whole step up from each of the chord tones (E G# B D).
When you put this all together you have the A Jazz Minor scale. A B C D E F# G# A
Enjoy! |
|
|
|
